Arkashean Q&A Session -- 005
CARLA: What... How does Wicken serve on this level of experiences?
THERRY: The level of wisdom of Wicken when it comes down to mortals rather than forces deals basically with spirituality rather than decadence. It deals with seemingly everyday affairs, not so much in what you do, as much as it deals with the attitudes you maintain within yourself as you do the things that you do. The teaching of these attitudes and stuff is what controls the individual's reality. It teaches them to have a loving Maat rather than a war Maat. It teaches them to have, not a holier than thou Maat, but a Maat that's based on love rather than a Maat based on, "You're going to get what you're going to get or watch out!" You get what I'm trying to say?
CARLA: Wicken does all this stuff? Wicken wants them to have a Love Maat instead of a War Maat?
THERRY: Yes. It's based on honor. Hower, remember that like all belief systems, some people choose to serve the dark side of Wicken... Witchcraft.
CARLA: What is... I always thought it was an earth-based kind of philosophy.
THERRY: It is... In the light side of Wicken we're dealing with nature Gods... nature forces.
CARLA: You're saying that Wicken is based on love and honor.
THERRY: If you remember I told you that when these deal with mortals rather than forces, that's what they deal with.
CARLA: Well that sounds positive!
THERRY: Of course, it's positive. Wicken has always been positive.
CARLA: Okay. Well somewhere in there...
THERRY: There is not a single level of the Path to the Tree of Life that is negative. All of it is positive.
CARLA: Okay and I...
THERRY: Wicken is nothing more than a level of wisdom. If you put it within in its full context, it's a whole positive. If you take it out of its context, who knows what you can call it. But then, I'm giving it to you according to Recursive Dialusion. I'm not giving it to you according to whatever Paganism might view of it, because that doesn't mean anything to me anyway. I don't pay any attention to that stuff. Corruption along negative Paganism lines have little meaning,
CARLA: I thought that Wicken was part of Hecate?
THERRY: Yes and no. Hecate, in time gone past, was worshiped as one of the Gods of Earth.
CARLA: Well, alright, now that's where I was confused.
THERRY: In the negative side of worshipe, Hecate was debauchery of earth. Wicken was a level of understanding of the laws of earth...the natural forces that went into something... Hecate was thought of the negative side of Wicken. But then Hecate was the negative side of earth period, under all of its levels. Under Hecate, that's where an individual would get out and get into sexual orgies, but under Wicken rather than going out and getting into sexual orgies in the name of worship, they'd stay home and do whatever they had to do in the fields and have their heart and purity close to nature ... It's the spirituality part of it. A Wicken is very closely aligned to husbandry, and the Aaron Affairs.
CARLA: The Aaron affairs?
THERRY: The Aaron affairs are... We'll talk about it some other time. There's nine of them. And it deals with earth stuff, making of food, preserving of food, anything that had to do with preserving things of nature. That's the level of Wicken. The moon is a very important part...the cycles of the moon are very important in Wicken.
CARLA: What about... where is sexuality if you're into Wicken?
THERRY: It only does in terms of natural procreation for the seasons. There's a season that goes for procreation, a season to renew. Under that very limited aspect of the season to renew, sexuality gets into it. But it's not sexuality unlimited, it's sexuality very limited. When you start getting into orgies that are a part of worship, where people dance around the fire and make sacrifices, and they get into sexual orgies... that's not Wicken, that's witchcraft. Now you're getting into the negative side of life. Wicken is basically spirituality based in nature... The sexual orgies that are a part of Wicken was strictly limited to a number of couples, husbands and wives, having sexual relations under the light of the full moon. Un-married females and young virgins were barred from the rites of spring... also, it was not an excuse for wife swapping. It was thought that any male who was caught attending the rites of spring with other than his wife was insulting a sacred time of revitalization of the home of the Goddess. To satisfy the anger of the Goddess, both were burned while they still lived.
CARLA: Does Wicken have to do with Guiya at all.
THERRY: Yes. Very heavily as a matter of fact. Guiya, although not called Guiya in those days, was the Goddess that was worshipped by the people of that time.
CARLA: I guess it's just a pattern. I guess that's why you're celibate.
CARLA: What about the pattern of bringing people here that I've married or that I've been in love with in the past?
THERRY: What about it?
CARLA: How does that fit into the pattern that you told me about? That distraction coming from making love with them?
THERRY: I don't see how it's affected.
CARLA: It doesn't seem to be, but that's what I'm asking you.
THERRY: Just because you bring somebody here, I don't see how it does it.
CARLA: I guess because in my mind my assumption is the prime goals of helping people is to bring them here. Is that not true?
THERRY: Well, I don't see how that has anything to do with you going to bed with them, but okay.
CARLA: I was thinking about something you tried to explain to me a long time ago, but I don't think that I understood it. You were talking about people's animal? And how the light side and the dark side gives people's animal their physical body to attract them to different things?
THERRY: That's where your sexuality comes in and that's what dims the light.
CARLA: How does it dim the light if it attracts them to you? I don't...
THERRY: the same way as a flame draws a moth. They're all physical. The emotions that belong or are attached to the physical are pretty powerful and that's what the dark side uses to get you to corrupt yourself.
CARLA: But you once said that's what the Light uses to draw people away from the dark, right?
CARLA: So it's the same set of laws?
CARLA: You once told me, I think that you once told me that the guys that Louise brought here were all brought here from her going out with them, because of the attraction, that law that you were talking about the physical. Is that true?
THERRY: Yes. But she didn't sleep with all of them.
CARLA: But she slept with some of them.
CARLA: So is it the same with her?
CARLA: Does the spiritual light dim for the ones that we slept with?
THERRY: Yes. The spiritualistic influence dimmed. The physical, sexual influence got into the way, so that the people who would otherwise continue going to her for spiritual advice, stopped using her for spiritual advice because of the wars that were going on in the physical. When you allow sexuality to enter into it, then the machismo, both male and female machismo within each individual, plus their excessive ego, and that whole bit, all enters it and that all interferes with the spiritual movement within them. It's pretty hard to sit quietly and speak of a concept such as Karma to somebody that you're pissed off with because they know that you're having unsatisfied sex with them or they went out and had sex with somebody else and they're supposed to be the new woman.
CARLA: So you're saying that it's when things start going bad between people that you screw...that the spiritual light dims and these things get in the way?
CARLA: Because Bill and I still...he's still my Teacher and we don't have sex anymore and we had lots of problems when we did have sex, but he was still my Teacher. That's 'cause we had you to help us?
THERRY: Yes. 'Cause if you remember, every time things went wrong between you guys, you would come running here. Without that, you guys would have separated a long time ago.
CARLA: Would Tina still be coming here, if she hadn't been pissed off at me, do you think?
CARLA: Even if she...if we hadn't...
THERRY: She...You and Tina would have continued along the spiritual teaching if sexuality hadn't got in the way.
CARLA: But she would have found somebody else for sex?
THERRY: Not necessarily so.
CARLA: How so? That's what she wanted...a relationship.
THERRY: She was looking for a situation where she could be fulfilled internally. The physical aspects of sex was not all that important at the time. It was the emotional and the deep within feelings that she needed.
CARLA: If that's true, how come didn't she keep coming here when she broke up with me? I don't come here all the time. There were plenty of times she could be here without me.
THERRY: Because she was looking toward you to...in the beginning to help her fulfill that deep inside thing. That's why when you guys...when things were well between you guys...when you guys were acting under the law of compatible friendship rather than lover she went pretty strongly with you to learn about spirituality and it wasn't until the game changed from compatible friendship to lover then finally to betrayed lover that things got bad and she just took off and went to somebody else.
CARLA: Do things work out better if you have a compatible friendship with people?
THERRY: By far.
CARLA: Because you don't play the betrayed lover game?
CARLA: And you can still teach them?
THERRY: Yes. So long as the unrequited love game does not enter the relationship what little sexuality that exists won't do any harm. It will be used as a draw. But when unrequited love or heavy love enters it, it always becomes destruction for spirituality. See those two games bring with it, demands and expectations to an unreasonable standard.
CARLA: In anything or just in guiding people.
THERRY: Especially. Our conversation is spirituality. By the way, did you hear anymore from this other lady?
CARLA: Which one?
THERRY: The one that came...
CARLA: No. I was supposed to call her. She tried to get together with dinner... for dinner with me and I couldn't that week. It was just a bad week and I haven't called her back. I was going to call her back because she might have taken that as some sort of signal so I wanted to make sure that she shouldn't that I still wanted to be her friend. I'm not sure if we got together because she said she was Wicken... and she didn't want to harm our life forces.
THERRY: You don't walk out and destroy a blade of grass. You preserve rather than destroy. That's the basis of Wicken. It doesn't matter how big or small the life form is, you seek to preserve not to maintain, but to preserve one sometimes avoids contact..
CARLA: What's the difference.
THERRY: A lot of it. Something that is basic...see there are other levels that their basis is maintain and that means that you don't go back, but you don't go forward either. That's maintain.
CARLA: And what's preserve?
THERRY: Preserve is to preserve from destruction, you're allowed growth to slip back a little, so that growth may go forward. See that other, which I won't tell you the name of it is because I don't want to go into a big aside, that other usually serves as a bridge between two states...or two persons.
CARLA: Which other one are we referring to?
THERRY: That which is based upon maintain.
CARLA: Oh, okay, [it] serves as a bridge between two sides?
THERRY: No, you said that, not me.
CARLA: What did you say?
THERRY: Between two states... or two persons.
CARLA: Two states? What kind of states?
THERRY: Like I said, I don't want to get into another aside.
CARLA: Well, was having my friend accept being gay a negative thing to do?
THERRY: No. Anytime you can help someone else accept themselves, regardless of what themselves is, is positive.
CARLA: Even though being gay is a trap?
THERRY: Yes. There is nothing worse than being something that you hate...I mean if you must be something, the least that you can do is accept it. Refusing to accept something that you intrinsically are makes whatever it is that you are that much more painful. So if you can learn to accept what you are, then you're in a better position to realize what you are and therefore change it one way or the other.
CARLA: How do you walk somebody through their pain?
THERRY: The way I taught you to do it.
CARLA: Being a friend and through the process of being a friend, talking to people, gaining their trust and respect?
THERRY: Letting them use you as a mirror, be there when they need you, sometimes for sex, sometimes for no, sometimes just for holding, sometimes just for talking. Whatever it is necessary. But above all things, you got to keep yourself out of the way and you have to keep your own desires out of the way.
CARLA: (Sigh) Not an easy task.
CARLA: I know I don't want to make the same mistakes that I made with Tina, as far as preaching to them and sounding arrogant. But its hard too because you can't be wishwashy. I mean you have to take a stand for what you're explaining and what you're believing, if you believe in it.
CARLA: I thought that not taking a stand and standing up for it, whereas like being...hiding your light under a bush.
THERRY: Seems to me you're talking about somebody who's sitting on a pedestal with trying to defend his pedestal. I was always under the impression that what is more important is what you have in your own heart and because it is within your heart, if you keep your heart pure, you don't have to defend against it with anybody.
CARLA: Maybe defend wasn't a good word to describe it as. When the guy in the bookstore asked me some questions, and I started to explain why I didn't do rituals, I found myself dancing around the topic because I figured and I was right in assuming, because he, his girlfriend anyway does rituals, I don't know if he does or not, but it was a very acceptable thing to them, and...so I guess it's not "defend," but I didn't want to sound arrogant and I didn't want to sound judgmental for doing rituals, because I wasn't, but I had a hard time finding the line of explaining why I didn't do them without sounding like there was something wrong with doing them.
THERRY: But that's not true. You do do it.
CARLA: Not the same way that they were talking about.
THERRY: Hey, ritual is a ritual is a ritual and that's the key to response. "Do you do rituals?" "Yes, but I have my own set. I don't get involved in other people's rituals, I stay with my own. "Oh, really? What are yours?" "I don't discuss mine, mine's are private."
CARLA: Yeah, I guess that's a more accurate response.
THERRY: There's a difference between standing up for yourself and going to needless war. Now for you to turn around and say that in front of someone else was not good. It was far better if you called them aside and privately speak to them. It is not wise to tell somebody off in the middle of a crowd. And when you do that, also at the same time, be certain that they realize that you're not going to war with them, but you just have a preference that something is sacred for you and you would prefer them not to make light of something that you hold sacred.
CARLA: How do you make it such that they understand that it's a preference instead of you going to war with them? Do you say it?
THERRY: One way is to say, "Look, we were talking about the things that are sacred to various people and I happened to mention something that was sacred to me. I would prefer if you not make light of it.
CARLA: What are some other ways of handling it when people make light of things that are sacred to you?
THERRY: There are different ways. But I don't really think that there is a right way. Anyway that works makes it good, so long as it doesn't create a war.
CARLA: It could have, I mean it didn't because she's good enough to...I saw right away what she did. I'm not that fast-thinking on my feet and I'm not very good with dealing with conflict and I generally don't know what to say.
THERRY: You'll learn. Besides the [greater] percentage of the time, silence is the better response anyway. (Laugh). As I was saying, while you may see that as being accurate for right now, that's because of the barriers of the Illusion that you're in. But after you investigate it more, you will discover that it's not specifically a lover that you're looking for, it is the internal sense of belonging.
CARLA: If that's true, why don't I just join Arkashea and get it there.
THERRY: Because the Illusion that you're in won't let you. You invoked certain forces when you started insisting upon experimenting the gay life. Well, those forces are going to control other things, so for you to learn to experience belonging, you'll have to do it under the laws of sexuality. To simply join Arkashea, while you would experience the thing of belonging, but you'd do so on a much higher level and the laws of your present Illusion would not allow that. You have to experience all of those things on the respective level that you're on. Does that make sense to you?
THERRY: So belonging to you now, means has somebody that fulfills your needs, physically, close to you. You'll find out that it's not necessary for you to have sex with them, but to have the phenomenon as the best friend. That will do it too, but you'll discover that with time.
CARLA: Well then how come, I don't feel that with Bill?
THERRY: Because Bill's on another level. He's Arkashea.
CARLA: So it can't be somebody that's Arkashea?
THERRY: To feel that experience of belonging, you have to experience it on your level within the Matrix that your Illusion has created. In this particular instance, for you, it happens to be in the gay sphere.
CARLA: Is that possible?
THERRY: Yes, it's possible. It's painful because it's never lasting. The odd part about it, is that when you finally meet somebody that you can have as a best friend, you find that sexuality is gone out of it totally and therefore so its no longer of the gay sphere. It simply happens to be friends that also happen to be gay so that you have things in common. You understand, you can empathize truly.
CARLA: And sexuality goes out of it? You mean, you're not lovers?
THERRY: No. So long as you're lovers, then it's temporary. It'll come and it'll go and that's very painful. To last any length of time, the relationship has to be of a compatible kind... not a lover kind. There is an equal phenomenon in the heterosexual life.
CARLA: Which is what?
THERRY: The experiences are different, but the laws and the behavior is the same thing.
CARLA: So which aspect of heterosexuality? I mean if it's the female...
THERRY: Well, the heterosexual meets a friend and sex itself may be the attracting force which will bring them together, but after a while sex itself leaves the relationship and they become lasting friends, but it's no longer heterosexual, it's simply "friend," at which point, the agenda, either on whatever level they're on becomes unimportant. It doesn't matter if it's a man in a woman's body, a woman in a man's body or a man in a man's body or a woman in a woman's body. All of that stuff no longer matters anymore because now it becomes "friend" that is compatible.
CARLA: But that wouldn't work for me if it was like me and Carol for instance, I mean staying friends?
THERRY: Not at the moment. Not right now. It can grow into that, but not right now. It goes back to the hierarchy of needs. You can't know friend, until you are yourself your friend. You can't know peace unless hunger has been satisfied, until shelter has been satisfied. Every Illusion has its own hierarchy of needs.
CARLA: What's the Illusion if you're gay? To have a hierarchy of needs, you have to have a lover before you can have friends?
THERRY: Not necessarily a lover, but you have to...you have to have the feeling of belonging.
CARLA: But I already know that I'm on the periphery of the gay group. At least I'm...
THERRY: So you think.
CARLA: That brings up an interesting point. Perhaps the people that I label as the gay community, aren't really the gay community, maybe they're an aspect of the gay community.
THERRY: Perhaps they're coincidences.
CARLA: What do you mean?
THERRY: Coincidentally, they happen to be gay, but they're relationship that exists [with you], does not happen to be one of gayness.
CARLA: Then what would it be one of?
THERRY: Different stages within the Illusion upon which to play your roles.
CARLA: Was I rejected...because I said something to my friend Charlotte about the community and she got mad because she didn't feel that I was including her and she was right I wasn't. But I realized that even they don't hang out all the time, I mean they're still gay and they consider themselves part of the community... And that maybe I was having too narrow a definition on what's to feel an outsider of...
CARLA: ...because I have other friends that are gay, that I'm friends with that don't hang out very much. They're not single and maybe that's why they don't hang out very much.
CARLA: But they're no less part of the community and they do accept me and my Arkashean background
CARLA: ...and belief system.
THERRY: So perhaps, if you come to understand that you're label, the community is a very specific stage whereupon you can play your roles...
CARLA: But it brings me back to, I was floating around in a state of meditation and...it wasn't meditation...how did I get...
THERRY: Sorry, I won't talk on that... I never discuss the method that we use to teach people things.
CARLA: No, it wasn't a method.
THERRY: Yes, it was. There are many levels of awareness that you are yet aware of.
CARLA: But it felt that I was able to contact the Universe again!
THERRY: Yeah. Again, I won't discuss that.
CARLA: Well, what I wanted to say was that I felt pretty much at peace and when I woke up...I was in a room full of people and I looked at the person who was the center of my attention at the time, and I immediately got filled with anxiety and I immediately got sick with myself, because it was the same old pattern and I realized that I was not completely comfortable being gay, since that's what I am, but that I was not comfortable with the feelings and attitudes and values that I keep having towards relationships and towards always wanting a relationship.
THERRY: Okay, but we have a different way of putting that.
CARLA: What's that?
THERRY: It's very difficult to walk with turkeys after having flown with eagles.
CARLA: So there must be a way to live with myself and learn to be happy.
THERRY: Well, look's like you'll have to learn to realign your values and come to realize that all games have a different stage and the rules thereof apply to that game. Don't try to transcend rules. Don't try to not play a game by not obeying the rules of that game.
CARLA: Well, I wondered a number of things. For one, obviously, I would still like a lover, but I certainly like the behavior of the past couple of months and...
THERRY: Well, what can I tell you, but everything has a price.
CARLA: Well, when you talked about being aloof from sexuality, that seemed to hit what I was striving for on the head.
THERRY: Yeah, I seem to have a habit of doing that, don't I.
CARLA: So my question is, what are the thoughts and attitudes and behaviors that are my game of being gay?
THERRY: Well, that's not as important as the fact that you're consistently trying the play one game with the rules of another game and as a result of that, you're always on a fence. Because you want it more than one way at a time...but you don't want to pay the price of either. You want the comforts and the joys of belonging to your homosexual friends, but you don't want the pain of everything that goes along with belonging to them. You want both worlds...or the best of both worlds and the harm of neither. You can't have that.
CARLA: Which is the other world that I'm striving to get besides the gay one?
THERRY: Well you're still trying to walk with eagles or fly with eagles and every time we allow you to fly with eagles, to use that vernacular, when you have to go back among your turkeys, you don't feel very good. So at this point, you have a choice, don't you. You can either stay among the eagles, stay among the turkeys, or get used to the fact that you live in two worlds. When you're in one world, obey the rules of that world. When you go back among the other world, obey the rules of that world and don't regret. Accept the responsibility of your own choices and accept the responsibility of your own behavior. Accept that that is a trade-off.
CARLA: Is it possible to be in two worlds?
THERRY: Yes, it's possible to go back and forth, the same ways that's it possible to be a driver, the next a mother, the next minute to be a cook, the next minute to be a teacher. They're all different roles and in order to play those roles, they all have a specific stage which allow you to play that role.
CARLA: I am getting the sense that because of some of the choices that I made, that's what I'm going to have to do.
THERRY: You got it.
CARLA: ...because inside me, now it's both.
THERRY: And by law, the forces that you evoke, you must master. You may never again be freed from those forces... at least in this life.
CARLA: Well it seems to me...I'm wondering if I converted what you said. That seems to be my understanding...and...
THERRY: Well, that seems to be what life is forcing you to do, isn't it? If you stay away from Arkashea that means that you're going to go back to the life of being actively gay, but you can't stay there too long, because they won't let you, you become too unhappy, so then you start coming back to Arkashea and then you're flying with high spirituality for a while, but you can't stay there too long because the earth starts calling you, you hear the call of the wild, and you have to answer, so you go back and forth.
CARLA: Am I not sitting on the fence?
THERRY: Not if you accept the responsibility of the change, when it comes. If you accept the fact that you're going to walk among your earth and accept the rules of earth at that time, but keeping holiness holy, in short if you learn to give Caesar what belongs to Caesar and give to God what belongs to your God, then it's not sitting on the fence. Anyone who pays the price for their behavior, they have the right to that behavior. They can, although, they constantly change, they can achieve some measure of contentment. It is when they refuse to pay the price and refuse to accept the limitations of each game on each level, then they have problems. For them, it's crying time almost all the time.
CARLA: Is being aloof from sex not paying the rules of the game of being gay?
THERRY: Depends on the specific aspects of the game that you're playing.
CARLA: I guess I'm trying to form values, but you can't really...
THERRY: They're not all that clear-cut.
CARLA: That's what I was just thinking.
THERRY: ...because games like everything else is a continuum.
CARLA: Oh, that I didn't realize.
THERRY: And every point along that continuum, the rules are slightly different. The trade-offs are slightly different.
CARLA: Because I know that if I go to a party and don't flirt because I'm being aloof from sex when there's someone there that I'm attracted to, then obviously that's not following the recipe...
CARLA: which was confusing to me when I was thinking about that last week.
THERRY: You've got to constantly bear in mind that the continuum is the unit of creation and absolutely everything that you get into is part of that continuum. In many instances, it's a point along more than one continuum.
CARLA: So the trick to being contented is to recognize the shifts in my life?
THERRY: Yes. Know the laws of your illusions if you want to play the games.
CARLA: And adapt to the shifts in situations?
THERRY: Adapt according to the trade-offs that you're willing to make to achieve what you want. If you don't it's crying time. And as you've already learned, there's no kick in the ass better than the one that nature gives you.
CARLA: That's true.
CARLA: I got a quick question. Is the gift of an act draw new information?
CARLA: Then how come some things seem like new information? A lot of things seem like new information.
THERRY: Because you never bothered to learn it correctly the first time around.
CARLA: Okay. Well how come there also seem to be new things that I'm not familiar with of other kinds of experiences?
THERRY: Same answer.
CARLA: What's your definition of new?
THERRY: Something that you never had before.
CARLA: So I take it, there's a lot that I didn't know I had already.
CARLA: Including past time periods and less?
CARLA: So I could re-enter all the doors that were never opened this time, because I've never had them before, is that not correct?
CARLA: Which would make them seem new.
CARLA: To clarify one thing, if you have an attitude towards being aloof towards something...Well, I guess it comes down to shifting...well, if you shift your behavior to make the situation, does that mean that you still don't have the value? I mean, if you start flirting with someone, if you said that you're going to be aloof towards sexuality and that you're not going to care...
THERRY: That's got to be the longest question in history!
CARLA: (laugh) Well if you say that you're not going to care about something, then you meet somebody that looks interesting and you start flirting with them, are you still being aloof or have you changed?
THERRY: You have to bear in mind that there's nothing, absolutely nothing on this level of existence is written in stone. So just because you say something or you're going to do something, well, talk is cheap, man is not made in stone.
CARLA: Well but should you not do it, I mean if it's an axiom, I don't...or maybe it's not an axiom, maybe it's an attitude...
THERRY: Yeah, maybe it's also a plan, maybe it's a guidepost, maybe it isn't anything at all. Maybe it's just words in the wind to help you feel good.
CARLA: Maybe it is, but what if you don't want it be any of that?
THERRY: Then time will tell that. Remember absolutely every thought crystallizes over time and they become values, but it's going to take time and experience to make them crystallize.
CARLA: Well, also if behaviors match up to them...if you say you're going to adapt to different worlds...
THERRY: It all depends on the stage you're on, and the games that you're playing and the roles you decide to do. If the game matches...if the role matches the game, and the game is on the correct stage and the proper lighting and the trade-offs are all correct, then you'll have a valid experience that'll be conducive towards growth, but if you don't do your homework and you screw up along the way...well, you're going to cry.
CARLA: Okay. I've got some more questions left, but it can wait.
THERRY: Okay. So be it.