Arkashean Q&A Session -- 011

BLAKE: About graphing a road map... can we work together?

THERRY: You remember, you're considerably higher than he is along those developments, `cause he hasn't even reached the stage where he's capable of traveling through the time tunnels. So that's--

BLAKE: Was that a cue?

THERRY: No, I don't give cues; it's too dangerous.

BLAKE: Okay. Would you say there's more fear involved in learning that process?


DUNCAN: More fear in learning what process than what?

THERRY: Ah, are you fishing?

DUNCAN: I don't know. I thought you guys were talking about two different processes.

THERRY: Okay. If you didn't understand what he says, it's better that you leave it alone.

DUNCAN: Well, I thought I did; I'm --

THERRY: If you understood, why'd you ask the question?

SKIE: `Cause I wanted to make sure because it was implied the other process---

THERRY: Okay, you state it, and if it is correct, we'll state it.

DUNCAN: That there's more fear involved in learning how to travel through the time tunnels then there is through the Now?


DUNCAN: Why should that be?

THERRY: Because when you travel through the Now, the awareness doesn't exist-- When you travel through a time tunnel there is the feeling of being closed in.

DUNCAN: Oh, yea, Iremember that... that makes sense.

THERRY: --whereas traveling through the time tunnel, awareness does exist.

BLAKE: You might go AH! Ah! Panic!

THERRY: Yea, you go bananas. Especially if you become fascinated and you slow down and then you sit, and space is passing you sufficiently fast but, sufficiently slow so that you can capture what's inside each frame, and then you sit and it's like, d'you ever see those old movies where they speed it up and everybody's zum, zum, zum, zum!!


THERRY: It's like that. It's funny as hell, but it destroys your future because you already know what that entire segment of the future of the time tunnel will end up, so then if you have to go back at sometime and live it, then throughout that entire segment, it's one big deja vu.

DUNCAN: So you're not supposed to look, you're supposed to kind of go through?

BLAKE: It depends on what kind of control you have.

THERRY: It depends on your purpose, yea, and the purpose.

BLAKE: Well, that's an interesting safety mechanism that you actually go as fast as you possibly can in the Universe, and that protects you. And that when you slow down, that's not--that's paradoxical.


BLAKE: You'd think it'd be the faster you go, the more fear or the more difficulty there would be.

THERRY: No, it doesn't work that way. Yea, you got to remember that when you pass barriers, the laws reverse themselves.

BLAKE: That's an interesting safety mechanism.


DUNCAN: So what gives those tunnels the illusion of solidity? Or is that a silly question?

THERRY: Ah, the language that you use to communicate to yourself with.

DUNCAN: So it could just as easily be not solid?

THERRY: Yes. Remember, language doesn't get its power because it is the tool that you use to communicate to others; it gets its real power because it is the only tool you have to communicate to yourself. Hence, it is the creator of all your worlds. If you look at a piece of matter on earth it looks and feels solid... but if you change your perspective you find out that it's mainly space that separates the tiny pieces of matter together, and that the matter in question looks solid only because of your level of observation.

BLAKE: I did ask the question that if you go from one reality to another, not through the Now, but not at the speed of light, that-- I mean speed of thought.

THERRY: No such thing. If you travel through the Now, you cannot help it, you must travel at the speed of thought; nothing else exists on that level... if you travel outside of the NOW, then you don't have to travel at the speed of thought... you can even travel at sub-light speeds.

BLAKE: I see.

THERRY: And there is no awareness in the NOW, because there is no time?

DUNCAN: Wait a minute. But there's something else. There's an analogy to when--


DUNCAN: So it would be almost like Orthodontiks awareness?

THERRY: Yes. It's the awareness that existed in Primedial Force.

BLAKE: So then how can you possibly trace every moment from one reality to another?

THERRY: Believe me, you can.

BLAKE: Even at the speed of thought?

THERRY: And even beyond.

BLAKE: I've been waiting for that for awhile.

THERRY: Oh, you have a wait.

BLAKE: I was waiting for you to slip up.

THERRY: I haven't slipped up.

BLAKE: You told me there's something faster than the speed of thought, now all you have to do is label it.

THERRY: Yea, yea. I haven't slipped up.

DUNCAN: Remember that movie, The Time Bandits?


DUNCAN: Where they had the big map.

THERRY: Oh yea.

DUNCAN: That's what we need.

THERRY: Lot's of luck, Charlie Brown.

DUNCAN: I'll make it one day. Yes? No?

THERRY: Yea, you'll have to draw your own.

DUNCAN: Yea, I know.

BLAKE: What do you mean, he has to draw his own? That was a cue?

THERRY: `Cause I'm not going to give it to him.

BLAKE: Yea, but does that mean that each person has their own portals that they must follow and not preexisting ones?

THERRY: Yes. `Cause if you think for a minute, your studies are in fact teaching you to draw your own map.

BLAKE: That's why I asked. I was wondering what you really meant by that statement.

THERRY: Yea, `cause I'm not going to give it to him.

BLAKE: Yea, okay.

THERRY: He's going to learn it the same way as everybody else does. By studying.

BLAKE: Well, Therry's refused to tell me a lot of things I've got to learn on my own.

DUNCAN: Yea, but at least you know what you don't know. I don't even know what I don't know.

BLAKE: I wouldn't say that. Some things. I'm sure there's a whole load of things I don't know. I would be an idiot to presume that.

DUNCAN: Yea, but I mean like up until several days ago I knew that Time was AC, or whatever but it had no meaning to me whatsoever, it's just--had no mobility content.

BLAKE: What do you mean that time was AC?

DUNCAN: It's choppy.

THERRY: Yea. That's a lot more then the rest of the species knows.

DUNCAN: Yea, but I tried to think about it, and it still didn't do anything for me.

THERRY: It can't because you haven't progressed in your lessons that long.

DUNCAN: Yea, but now you told me all about it; I still may not be able to do anything with it, but at least I can think about it and--

THERRY: All I gave you was language.

BLAKE: Why can't time be DC?


THERRY: No, time is never DC. Time can't be DC.

DUNCAN: Oh, I know what I want to talk about.

BLAKE: Why not?

THERRY: `Cause it can't. It's not in the order of things. Remember, space is nothing but a still-shot of time.


DUNCAN: So it's Time-space, time-space, time-space.

THERRY: Right, so it has to be a square wave.

DUNCAN: That's what I want to talk about.

BLAKE: Oh, okay.

DUNCAN: Square waves. I was thinking about that, and I didn't understand it. When you have a square wave, does it go both above and below the origin from positive to negative, or is it all on one side?

THERRY: That depends on what the frequency is creating... Sometime it is only on one it becomes difficult because it is only on one side because of the levels we have, but it's really not, because everything that exists in positive matter also exists in negative matter, it's just that in this particular area we never have them both.

DUNCAN: Okay, so if I go on an scope and make a square wave it's never going to go below that origin or whatever they call that zero line?

THERRY: Sure it could. It all depends on where you make your artificial base line.

DUNCAN: But it's not like alternating current that goes ah--

THERRY: You can make it alternating current. You can have total DC current, and still start out as a sine wave or a square wave.

BLAKE: That would have to be an on/off kind of thing, wouldn't it?

THERRY: Sometime yes.

DUNCAN: I want to use the square wave that's going to take me the furthest in understanding the flip-flopping between the Illusion and the Now. The first thing I want to do--

THERRY: Then divorce the square wave from the oscilloscope and electricity, and view just the pattern.

DUNCAN: Okay, so you've got a square wave, goes like--first thing it does is go up, or does it first go across?

THERRY: First thing it does is to establish your task-oriented base line-- then, you can start anywhere along the cycle, don't matter.

DUNCAN: Then let's say it's up here and it goes across.

THERRY: Okay. Across what, the Now or the--

DUNCAN: Well, if it goes--if you would graph it on paper--

THERRY: See the problem is that it's not really a square wave.

DUNCAN: It's not. What is it?

THERRY: Because the time that it's in the Now is nothing but a negative pulse.


THERRY: What it is, it goes, if you're starting at one point of the origin, it'll go up into the illusion, and then the amount of time that you spend in the illusion--

DUNCAN: Right, it'll go across from left to right.

THERRY: Right. Then it will descend into the Now, and when it ascends, it ascends in the exact same trace such that no time is lost.

BLAKE: Oh, that's not a square wave.

THERRY: And then it continues its path along the illusion, then it descends into the Now again.

DUNCAN: Okay, but let's go back and look at it as the square wave for a second.

THERRY: But it's not really a square wave--

DUNCAN: I understand.

THERRY: That's why I say you have to separate it.

DUNCAN: Then why did you use the analogy of the square wave?

THERRY: Because it's the closest that makes it valid considering the limitations of our language... just because the observation of your mythical square wave tells us that there was no action while it was in the NOW, that is false information. Just because no action was being reported by your mythical square wave does not, necessarily, mean that there, indeed, was no action while your mythical square wave graph was in the NOW.

DUNCAN: So if it's used as a square wave, `cause I still have confusion about the square wave.

THERRY: Okay. Let's take the square wave, but let's remove all of the vertical movements--

BLAKE: That's horizontal.

THERRY: No, the square wave is, you go up, you have the illusion, you go down, then you have movement, which would be the time trace. Remove all of those time traces so that the descent and the ascent are super-imposed on one another such that there is no time.

DUNCAN: Oh, okay. So I didn't realize that that on the bottom was a time trace; I thought that was current-- Flow.

THERRY: Well, yea, the flow in this case would be time.

DUNCAN: Well the problem is--

BLAKE: They're ganged?

THERRY: See, remember, space is a still-shot of time. Therefore the top of the wave is the extent of the illusion as it travels through time.

DUNCAN: Right. Then it goes down to outside of the illusion, where time is not the same as it is in the illusion and in the Now?

THERRY: Then it goes outside the illusion or to the NOW to the Now, where time as the illusion knows it does not exist, and therefore does not pass.

DUNCAN: Right. But in a square wave it does.

THERRY: In a square wave time continues to pass, but in the illusion it does not. Time does not pass even though you stay in the Now twenty minutes, a half hour, a million years, it don't matter. Time does not pass... but the time that you spend outside the illusion does not stop the time that is in the illusion.

DUNCAN: Okay, well yesterday you told me, going back to the square wave Now, that you go through the illusion--


DUNCAN: --you hit the Now, the trace goes this way, then it stops.

THERRY: Yea, but you're going into an alter-reality. You're going on a different time zone when there's a positive and a negative--

BLAKE: When your two realities are involved.

THERRY: Yea, when there's two realities, parallel realities, then you have your time wave that goes in this, in the top reality, then it slips to the bottom reality, then it slips to the top reality. That's the process of Astration.

DUNCAN: Okay, now let me go backwards then?

BLAKE: That still really is not a square wave `cause you're retracing your--

THERRY: Correct.

DUNCAN: It all started out--

THERRY: Well, again, the square wave is the closest--

BLAKE: Yea, I understand. There's no name for that kind of wave because it doesn't exist down here.

THERRY: Exactly, because there is no time line.

BLAKE: Right.

THERRY: Except when you're in an illusion.

DUNCAN: It all started out when you told me you have to avoid the highs and the lows, and that was for emotions.

THERRY: Okay, now that's a different wave.

DUNCAN: That's AC.

THERRY: Yes, but that is from within the illusion... and from within your Ka.

DUNCAN: I know.

THERRY: Okay, whereas when we look at the wave in itself, then we're looking at both the illusion's frustration and the degree of control one has over the Ka's internal state.

DUNCAN: Right. So after we talked about the highs and the lows, which is AC, we talked about the individual being able to spend more time out of the illusion by controlling his internal state.

THERRY: Yea, they spend more time either in that illusion or in the Now.

DUNCAN: Right, but we can't really say that, but I know what you mean.


DUNCAN: At that point you told me, I said I don't understand how it can ever be DC, and you said it's not. It's square wave.

THERRY: Again you have to bear in mind--

BLAKE: That was the closest thing.

THERRY: That's the closest thing that applies.

DUNCAN: Fine, but I didn't understand--

THERRY: But it becomes a true square wave when you're Astrating, because time does pass both ways.

BLAKE: Yea, that's right.

DUNCAN: Okay, here's what I want to know. If you use a square wave as an analogy regardless of how lousy an analogy it is, and then you want to make an analogy of how you want to distort that square wave to spend more time out of the illusion, what would change?

BLAKE: You'd have to be able to control time in both realities, and...

THERRY: Wait a minute, no, no, no. Are you talking where you're Astrating or are you talking about you're remaining in the same reality?

DUNCAN: I'd like to talk about both. First one and then the other.

THERRY: Okay. In the one--

DUNCAN: Which one?

THERRY: If you're staying in the same reality, time passes in the illusion; it does not pass in the Now.

DUNCAN: Right.

THERRY: In the other, time passes in the illusion. It does not pass in the Now, then it drops to the next illusion and time passes again. Hence you have in fact a true square wave when your, ah, when you border and cross illusions across realities.

DUNCAN: Okay, so what you're telling me is there's no way to draw an analogy of an individual who's gaining the ability to spend more time out of the illusion using the square waves.

THERRY: Correct, because we're tracing time and in the Now time doesn't exist. It does not pass.

DUNCAN: Okay, so that's a fruitless analogy.


DUNCAN: Let's forget about it then. But the AC is still a good one.


BLAKE: For in the illusion.

THERRY: So the square wave a good one if you're talking about Astrations. If you're talking about the awareness within a single reality, then it's--it doesn't apply.

BLAKE: So while you're in the illusion, how can you--well, that would be time-traveling through the tunnels.


BLAKE: Do you have to have the ability to do that here--

DUNCAN: So what other kind of waves do they have that are useful to describing the various phenomenon--

THERRY: Nice try, but no cigar. I told you I will give you guys absolutely no information at all. The only thing I will give you is after you have experienced it, then I will give you the language that you need to understand it in order to keep fear away. Beyond that I will give you no information at all, except I will continue your lessons.

BLAKE: I experienced this--what is it!?!

DUNCAN: So can I get a oscilloscope and play with it and look for various waves?

THERRY: That ain't gonna help you. That'll only serve to confuse you. The amount of time that you spend looking for waves and understanding it, that amount of time you'll take away from your studies.

BLAKE: Besides, how can you apply those things that you see to labels you don't have?

DUNCAN: Well, there's no telling. Who knows what lies dormant in the mind waiting for some strange stimulus to say, oh, yea, I remember seeing something like that.

THERRY: (In funny voice) Yah, yah, yah, yah, the Shadow knows.

KIM: Is the fear the main force that can keep you from experiencing the things in those alter-realities?


KIM: And keeps you tied back to this bottom.

THERRY: Yes, and it's your number one danger, `cause fear will kill you, and it will drive you crazy. It'll lock you in a moment of time such that, from this reality, you'll be viewed as being catatonic or schizophrenic.

KIM: So what exactly is fear? Is it strictly an emotion?

THERRY: It is a force.

KIM: It's an actual force that exists in the Universe.

THERRY: Yes. It's a scrambler.

BLAKE: That's a good question, what is the nature of fear.


KIM: So it's not really tied to emotions or Karma or anything.

THERRY: Yes it is.

KIM: How so?

THERRY: `Cause it is.

KIM: But how so? I mean, is it Karma that dictates how much fear you're feeling in a particular situation?

THERRY: The Affinity Factor controls it.

DUNCAN: So fear is an actual outside force? Are emotions actual outside forces?

THERRY: No, they're inside forces.

DUNCAN: Are the emotions what summons fear?

THERRY: Among other things, yea. See, emotions are chemically based. They are a product of the Ka. Fear is not. Fear is a scrambler that works on the frequencies of creation.

DUNCAN: What is the purpose of it? Does it have a purpose? I mean, I know it has a purpose-

THERRY: It's a barrier. Remember the law: The force evoked to create a phenomenon maintains that phenomenon unto forever. Thus if you create, or evoke a force to place you in a phenomenon, that same force is going to maintain you in that phenomenon. Thus one of those forces is called fear.

DUNCAN: So people use fear to create realities? Or is that stupid?

THERRY: It may be stupid but they still do it.

KIM: What was the question?

THERRY: Do people use fear to create realities. How many times have you seen somebody out of their fear, or running away from their fear; they create this whole big thing. Then they live according to it.

BLAKE: Yea, the multiple personality is a case of that.


BLAKE: What percentage of barriers would you say is made up of fear? Why I know, I'm wondering if it is all fear.

THERRY: No there are other forces that are stronger then fear. For instance, the thing that you kicked.

BLAKE: Oh yes, that one.

THERRY: That's not made out of fear. But I thought it was a pretty good barrier, wasn't it?

BLAKE: Uh-huh. What was it made out of?

THERRY: Again, I won't tell you anything; you have to experience it yourself first, and then I will give you the language that you need to understand it. But that's it.

DUNCAN: So if you come in a situation where fear develops, does that automatically mean that once that fear's there that you're not going to be able to deal with that situation effectively or can you just continue to try to function?

THERRY: It depends on the level of interaction. One thing is for certain. If you want to remove fear, make it mundane, make the situation mundane. Fear will be removed.

KIM: So fear is not--I mean, it's not an actual--it's an actual force--


KIM: But you can remove fear with your mind?

THERRY: If you understand the laws of its creation or its evocation, yes.

DUNCAN: So is it the presence or absence of fear that creates the possibilities, or is it what the individual--

THERRY: It's both. Some situations are created because of the presence of fear; other situations are barriers because of the absence of fear.

DUNCAN: You got to be kidding.

BLAKE: Oh, you say there's barriers created because of the absence of the absence of fear?


DUNCAN: (Laughter) Oh, I got to get some Tums.

BLAKE: A barrier's created because of the absence of fear?

KIM: But fear can be removed strictly by ignoring it, right?


KIM: You can't just ignore fear?

THERRY: No. If you ignore the fact that it's raining out, and you decide not to bring your umbrella, that doesn't change the fact that you're still going to get wet.

KIM: So then fear is very real?

THERRY: It is extremely real. The only way to de-energize fear is if you know the laws of its evocation.

BLAKE: And that could be myriad amounts of origins, right?


BLAKE: Or is there one pattern, basically.

THERRY: Well there's one basic pattern, but there's many faces to fear. Ah, in case it was missed, the varying patterns of fear is like the bumps and valleys of the key, as those bumps and valleys' positions and timing changes, it makes for a different lock... were back to AC again.

KIM: Is that what, like, from my own personal experience, some of the early experiences that I had with Astrating-- were almost strictly to learn about fear and how to deal with it.

THERRY: Yes. It's also what drove you away from various things too. It also drove you further away from Arkashea and drove you more into the outside world `cause there's less fear there; there's less stress, even though you felt more contented in Arkashea. When you run from fear, you run towards your dreams.

KIM: I don't feel as though I was running from fear, though.

THERRY: I know.

KIM: I feel more as though I was holding on to my individuality and my freedom and my freewill?

THERRY: Yes. If you think back, you were afraid of losing those, and if that isn't fear, what is it?

KIM: Yea, but that's not fear on the level--

THERRY: Wrong. Fear is fear is fear is fear.

KIM: So the fear of losing something on this level is just-- it's the same as the fear you encounter as you enter onto other levels?

THERRY: Yes, repeating patterns. Anytime an individual does things because of fear, regardless of the level, he could be in the realm of Predestiny.

KIM: Because of fear?


KIM: The fear drives you--

THERRY: Fear removes your free-will.

DUNCAN: What if he does something in spite of fear, is that the same thing?

THERRY: Nope. `Cause remember, fear is a double-edged sword. Some phenomena are created because of the presence of fear, some phenomena are created because of the absence of fear.

KIM: So is fear kind of like this fence, like this--the imagery--

THERRY: Let's just say barrier. Let's just say barrier rather than fence.

KIM: So the imagery that I'm seeing in my head now is a person or a soul walking along the path, and this path is bordered by fear, by these tall walls and these tall walls are fear, and as long as you give into fear you're going to stay along this predestined path. It's when you stick your head or your hand or any part of you through that barrier, then you start, then you can break--

THERRY: Well that's one way of looking at it.

DUNCAN: Are the situations that are caused by the absence of fear, would they generally be regarded as somebody who is trying to escape Maya, would he generally regard those as negative or positive situations?

THERRY: You can't make those blanket statements, because in some cases, the positive is looked at as a negative, and the negative is looked at as a positive. That's what makes things so confusing.

DUNCAN: Yea, well it's true. It's a little hard for me to understand then.

THERRY: You got to remember that all seeming evil does good, and all seeming good does evil. It all depends on the point of the continuum that you happen to be on. You got to remember the first law. That the first manifestation of duality is the absence and the presence. So in this particular case, since we're discussing the force fear, a phenomenon of fear is present as well as absence.

KIM: But the moments of absence of fear, aren't those interpreted by an individual as being a positive or pleasurable moment, or a moment of freedom?

THERRY: That's not necessarily true, because quite often the absence of fear drives a person into an illusion, and hence they fear death or they fear the ending of their illusion or they fear the game or they fear the ending of the game, but the illusion continues until the cycle is finished.

KIM: Yea, but if they're fearing those things, then there's not an absence of fear.

THERRY: Well that's not true again, because if you look at it from a graft, the absence of one is the presence of the other. This is where the confusing area gets into it. Every time you say yes to something, you in fact say no to many other things, and vice-versa, hence the positive is looked at as negative, and the negative is looked at as positive. It depends on the level.

BLAKE: How does that work in terms of the absence and presence of fear? If fear is present--

THERRY: Well, let's say you're working in a time zone, okay? And let's say arbitrarily--this is not true so don't try it out Timmy, `cause if you do you're going to come against that wall again.

BLAKE: Should I close my ears?

THERRY: No, just don't try it. Let's say you're working in the time zone, and you're traveling along a time tunnel. And let's say that a blue hue wraps one time, one space zone. Well, if you look at that blue hue as the presence of fear, then you can adjust yourself to go through it. But right next to it, the blue hue is not there. That would be the absence of fear. Then the next one again, the blue hue would be there, that would be the presence of fear, so therefore each time frame has its own borders which guard it so that you can't accidentally pass through `em. So with one, you'd look at it as positive, and the other one you'd look at it as negative, `cause every time you pass a border or a barrier, the laws reverse. So what is looked as the presence of fear in one area is looked at as the absence of fear in the other. Cross the border. But in both cases, fear is present and you have to deal with it in whatever was is necessary for the moment... Can you understand that?

KIM: Not completely.

THERRY: Alright, let's see if I can explain it to you using mathematical terms. If you take an expression x plus (-y) - 2x - (y + x), well, you see that inside a zone you have a plus, but that whole zone is really negative.

KIM: The negative negates the plus.

THERRY: But it doesn't. It only negates it if you look at it from the entire perspective.

BRUCE: So within the parenthesizes you're in a negative.

THERRY: Right.

KIM: But in terms of the equation, it's a, you're adding, you're just adding a negative.

THERRY: Right. The same way as in one, in another area, outside of the parenthesizes you're in a negative zone, but inside the parenthesizes, everything inside is positive. That's an example of the reversal of laws as you pass barriers... you will not truly understand it until you've traveled via a time tunnel.

DUNCAN: So if you were looking from the outside and you saw the blue and the absence of blue, whatever; the blue and the black... and the blue was the presence--

THERRY: No, let's look at it as the presence of blue, or the absence of blue.

DUNCAN: Okay, if you saw the presence of blue and that signified the presence of fear-- so you decided okay, I'm going to walk through this other door so I can have the absence of fear. Once you got inside, there would be the presence of fear?

THERRY: You'd suddenly discover--boy, would it ever be present.

DUNCAN: Now if you went through the blue, that was the presence of fear, once you got on the inside, that would be the absence of fear?

THERRY: That is quite a possibility.

DUNCAN: So that just goes to tell you, whenever there's anything good, don't go for it. Go for the bad one.

THERRY: Nooo! (laughter) That's terrible. The point is, if you don't know what you're doing, you can get hurt real bad. What you fear in one situation you might not fear in another. No, that's the worst thing you could do. You're speaking from the point of a lack of understanding of what happens when you time travel out of a tunnel. Because in fact it don't work that way during the process of time-travel. Even as you approach an area that you would look at as the absence, you'd still feel the presence, simply because, as you crossed into the zone, you and everything that is part of you has also shifted and reversed such that continuity exists throughout as you travel. That's what make it confusing when you try to explain it to someone. If they haven't themselves experienced it, then they can't know of the continuity, that even though the reality shifts, continuity is not lost, because that which is you also shifts with the medium, hence the presence of fear remains all the time.

DUNCAN: There's no escape.

THERRY: Or the absence of fear remains all the time.

DUNCAN: That's what they say, isn't it?

THERRY: Right.

DUNCAN: Can run, but you can't hide.

THERRY: Yep. That's one of the reasons usually we don't allow people to listen in on our conversation because they don't really understand, they go out and they try something, and boy, can they get hurt.

KIM: Well it seems as though any time you're going out of your body and trying something, you're being pulled out there by guides, so it's not like you're on your own?

THERRY: That's not true. That's not true at all.

KIM: We each, we each individual have the ability to--

THERRY: To screw up on your own, yes.

BRUCE:--go out on our own?


DUNCAN: You start taking acid or something, you can get pretty far up there. Something like that?

KIM: Oh, I mean, totally naturally like in, I don't mean doing drugs.

THERRY: Totally naturally you can do it. You have the free-will to screw up any way you choose.

KIM: I just know from my own experience I've never been able to achieve any level of alter-realities or Astrating without the feeling that somebody is there, or something is there helping me or pulling me along.

THERRY: That's because you're not forcing it; you're doing it as the lessons come. But it is possible for you to try to force it and go beyond, or you can outreach yourself. You can have a lot of problems. The insane asylums are filled with people who went too far.

KIM: Can you die from that?

THERRY: Seemingly so, yes.

KIM: Like you could leave and not be able to come back?

THERRY: Yes... You can lose your reference point and get lost.

DUNCAN: What does that mean, `seemingly so'?

BLAKE: Well, from one level it would look like death, and another level--

DUNCAN: Isn't that what death is, from one level?


KIM: Well your body, your physical body would die because--

THERRY: Not necessarily. Your physical body could become so comatose that it would be difficult to even perceive--

KIM: Your body would still be alive but your mind would be gone?


DUNCAN: So could you actually die or not?

THERRY: Yes, you can.

DUNCAN: Okay, so why seemingly?

THERRY: Heh, just because you can seemingly die, that doesn't stop all the others.

DUNCAN: It just seems strange if somebody asks you "can you die," why would you answer seemingly if the answer is yes. I don't get it. What's the hidden...?

THERRY: Because it's not limited to that.

DUNCAN: So the answer--

THERRY: What happens if the awareness gets back, but the mobility doesn't?

DUNCAN: Then you haven't died. You've done something else that mean seem like dying?

THERRY: Bingo. Seemingly die. That would be the number one biggest things that occurred. Thus you're viewed as being catatonic. That happens more than anything else. Either that or else you're viewed as comatose.

DUNCAN: What's the difference between comatose and catatonic?

THERRY: Catatonic, you have no vision--well, you have no mobility of any kind. If somebody places you in the position, you stay there. It's like a living statue. Comatose is when you're in a coma.

BLAKE: Yea. You have no awareness or--

THERRY: No, quite often you have awareness.

BLAKE: Oh, but none knows it.

THERRY: Right. But it's also possible that you don't have awareness. It's like being dead, but somebody, or some machine is keeping your body alive. Something like that. Okay.

DUNCAN: What is the relationship if any, between the Now and Castlekeep?

THERRY: Well, if you consider that Castlekeep is the vessel which contains all of creation, and if you consider that each room of castle keep is home for a reality that is either inside of an illusion or outside of an illusion of sorts, and if you take in consideration that within each room some type of time is in some kind of control, then going between rooms time would not exist in the same way that it did inside any room, that the Now is the areas that are between rooms.. I guess you might say that one contains the other, in some sort of way.

DUNCAN: Castle-keep we say is the seed of all illusions or the seat? Okay, if Time, as I now understand it, is intimately related to the frequency that is inside the rooms, where or what effect does conductivity and receptivity have on those?

THERRY: That's what allows illusion to exist within Time. It is the interaction of all three is what makes Time the nature that it is.

DUNCAN: Well at this point I can have a pretty good picture of what the frequency aspect does but not really the conductivity or receptivity.

THERRY: Well, you have to remember, space is nothing but a still-shot of time.


THERRY: And the illusion exists within the space which is Time. See, nothing can exist unless it exists within the Chi. In this case, within the medium space which is Time.

DUNCAN: Okay, so space being a still-shot of Time, really just implies that it's a different time, a different aspects somehow, because I remember you told me when you look at Space, you're really looking at Time. It takes time to go from one point to another.

THERRY: Well, while all that is true, in its own way, why not look at it from a point of view where three forces unit to create a different phenomena.

DUNCAN: Different from the original three?

THERRY: No, different from what was. So if you have time, then you have time, or conductivity, receptivity, and frequency uniting to create space or the illusion of the choppiness of Time. `Cause see, from Time came Space, but within Space, time must still continue. In space the going's on are tied to the time that is in control of that space. When you speak of an illusion, the time/space ganging is implied. That's the recursiveness that goes in the process of creation.

DUNCAN: Okay, so when you look at it as a film strip and each one of the little cells is space--

THERRY: Yea... but not really.

DUNCAN:--Time still permeates through that area that we call space?


DUNCAN: So there is a time duration of the illusion before we enter the Now?

THERRY: Yes, everything is cyclic.

DUNCAN: There's no time outside of time then? ---Time begin? Well, I'm still confused because frequency in this case, in the case of the film-strip analogy, that frequency really is not related to Time--

THERRY: Course it is.

DUNCAN: How so?

THERRY: If you want to look at the frequency--ah, at the film-strip analogy, then the frequency becomes the speed at which the strip is flowing, and that's Time.

DUNCAN: It has nothing to do with the on and off between the Now in each cell?

THERRY: Of course; that's what makes the frequency.

DUNCAN: Yea, but I thought that once you're outside of the cell, you're outside of Time. So from Time's point of view, there is no frequency. Only from the Now's point of view is there.

THERRY: Okay, but now you're not looking at it from the film-strip point of view. You're looking at it from Recursive Dialusion's point of view. If you look at it from the film-strip point of view, you're at a specific location, inside the space/time area and you step outside of the space/time area and into the NOW...and the strip is passing by you, in which case you have a square wave in that you have the illusion, time, or no time, the illusion, no time, the illusion, which becomes a square wave.

DUNCAN: I guess I'm mixing levels.

THERRY: Yes, you are. That square wave aspect is what makes the frequency which governs the time. That's why Time, as it exists within the illusion, is different from that which exists in the Now.

DUNCAN: Wait a minute. Why is that? Why is that that it's different?

THERRY: Well, if you want to understand the difference between Time as it exists within the illusion as opposed to the Time which exists in the Now, use the film-strip scenario and it will allow you to understand. `Course it's not as accurate, but nonetheless it's sufficient to understand. Within the film-strip analogy, the frequency of Time becomes a square wave.

DUNCAN: Right.

THERRY: And the speed at which it travels before you is the phenomenon of time as it exist in the NOW.

DUNCAN: If that speed is different, you're going to have a different experience of time.

THERRY: That is correct.

DUNCAN: I still don't understand where conductivity and receptivity come into it. What's being conducted and what's being receipted?

THERRY: Well, there to understand it, you have to shift levels again. And you can't look at it from the film-strip point of view. Now you have to look at it from Recursive Dialusion's point of view-- where the Great Force enters, gravity waves were created, the gravity waves acted upon a medium which we'll call the Now, pushed various realities out of their normal borders, and hence the Time/Space continuum, because of the gravity waves, came into being. Before this, Time and Space were two totally separate dimensions which had nothing to do with one another. But when the phenomenon occurred, then Time and Space were twisted around one another so that each became the borders for the other, and hence, the film-strip.

DUNCAN: So Time and Space used to be separate?

THERRY: Yea, before the action of the Great Force.

DUNCAN: So which came first, Space?

THERRY: In a fabric, which is first? In a chain, which is first? Where's the beginning of a circle?

DUNCAN: Wherever you cut into it and decide.

THERRY: Same thing applies.

DUNCAN: So let's cut into it and say that first there was--

THERRY: For understanding's sake it really doesn't matter which you choose first.

DUNCAN: So what was Space when it was unitary? Was there any motion in Space?

THERRY: No, there was no mobility... space was truly empty.

DUNCAN: There was nothing; it was just like a void because you didn't have any time?

THERRY: Yes. But it didn't matter because there wasn't life either. All there was was law.

DUNCAN: Yea, I guess it could actually--that could be the first split. The Presence could just as easily--you could just call that space I guess.


DUNCAN: Since that's the potential.

THERRY: Uh-huh. It's the first duality.

DUNCAN: And time--see, it's easier for me to understand space then it is to understand time because everything in time always seems to be relative to something else?

THERRY: Only because you're looking at Time as it exists within the illusion. If you want to look at time in terms of Orthodontiks time, then you have to take into account the Magpie effect. Because from our point of view, time as it exists in Orthodontiks and Deluge, as well as Castle-keep, is a true Eternal.

DUNCAN: Yea, but that doesn't help me to understand what Time is in absolute terms.

THERRY: How can you? All you have are the tools of these levels, and with the tools of these levels you're trying to understand something that has nothing to do with this level.

DUNCAN: But I can understand Space.

THERRY: Only because Space is of this level; Time is not.

DUNCAN: Why is Space of this level?

THERRY: Because the space that we perceive is exactly the same as the space that would have been at the time of--at the occasion of the presence. It's the same. It has not changed, but Time has.

DUNCAN: Except that Time has entered into it.

THERRY: Yes. But see, Time has not entered it in terms of affecting Space. Time has entered it, and has affected whatever life-form or whatever changes that occur in space.

DUNCAN: I see. It doesn't affect the space itself.

THERRY: Correct, `cause it is independent of space. Always has been. It has no effect upon space. See, space is something like gold; it's inert. It's unaffected by anything else. The only thing that affects space is gravity, and that was there from the beginning because that's what made space as we know it to begin with.

DUNCAN: Gravity makes space?

THERRY: Yea. The fabric, it affects the fabric of space.

DUNCAN: What's gravity?

THERRY: The forceful Spirit of Act. It's a point along the continuum of Force.

DUNCAN: Well, the way people understand gravity at this level is that it is a force that pulls all matter together.


DUNCAN: So what, if any, relationship does that have to gravity the way you conceive it to be?

THERRY: It doesn't.

DUNCAN: What is gravity on those upper levels?

THERRY: Gravity.


THERRY: See, within our scenario, gravity is just one point along the continuum of force, and since we're talking about a fabric, obviously there's lots of different levels involved.

DUNCAN: Alright, well, let me go on another track since I ain't getting anywhere in this one. You got time and you got space; somehow or other they get crunched together, twisted around each other.

THERRY: Right, and hence, because of this motion, each became the borders of the other. That's the important point. Here you have time which becomes an absolute border around space. And you have space which is the absolute border around time. Each in their own way. Hence, because the way things turned out, illusion, the life-force, the mind-force, the Great-Force, whatever, did its work within space allowing time to control the whole factor.

DUNCAN: Yea, so remember that picture we drew, the continuum of creation that looks like this--


DUNCAN: You said outside of that is just Primedial.


DUNCAN: What's the inside? Everything else?


DUNCAN: So that big bubble is Castle-Keep?

THERRY: Yes. It's the envelope of creation.

DUNCAN: And everything that's everything except--all of Maya's in there--all the dimensions and all the universes, everything?


DUNCAN: Or is there more than one of those little figurines?

THERRY: No, there's just one.

DUNCAN: So would it be like saying the Now is outside of that, or is it something aside from the Now?

THERRY: Both, in and the Now. And everything outside is Primedial Force. And if you allow your imagination to further run away with yourself, you can follow the combined thread back to Deluge. And if you follow the combined thread after it has passed the envelope, who knows where it's going to lead. It is conceivable that it would end up back at the beginning. But since you're outside of time, it has no meaning.

DUNCAN: Got anything to add to this conversation?

KIM: I'm not sure to jump in or wait.

DUNCAN: Well, so how does understand, forgive, and love supposedly affects the frequency?

THERRY: Well now you have jumped down about a million levels.

DUNCAN: Well, I'm not making any headway on the upper levels in terms of understanding.

THERRY: But I don't see how you can, `cause you're seeking to understand a phenomenon which has no representation on this level.

DUNCAN: Well the thing is, in the past however valid or invalid it is, through these discussions I gained what I think is some understanding. Like I say, I don't know how valid it is, but it seems like it has a purpose or a use.

THERRY: Okay, but in terms of understanding how the interaction of conductivity, frequency, and receptivity created the envelope of creation, you're speaking of a level that has no illusion, and you're trying to understand it within an illusion with the tools of illusion. Obviously the best you can do is create a parallel illusion.

DUNCAN: Yea, I'll settle for that.

THERRY: That's the best you can do. In which case, you can't ask the question how; you can only ask the question, or accept the statement `it is', and go from there. The minute you ask the question how, then you go outside of illusion again. You've reached the borders of the limitations of your language, and therefore the limits of your understanding.

DUNCAN: Well, yea, I can see that. All I'm really looking for is a self-consistent model that I can apply all the way down and see how it all fits in.

THERRY: That the only way that you can do that is to start out with the phrase `the time-space continuum exists', and go from there. Space is the place where illusions exist, and Time controls the illusion. You start with that as your axiom. If you try to go before that, you won't be able to. How and why it exists is of little importance.

DUNCAN: Okay, so it's a continuum. So what exists on the two end points? Slow and fast? Or, I don't know.

THERRY: Again, that goes back to before its existence, and to understand it from the point of illusion, or from the point of where we are, doesn't matter.

DUNCAN: You mean we don't know what exists on the two ends of the Time-Space continuum?

THERRY: Not from this level. All you know is the fact that space exists, the same pieces of space existed many different times, and on each there's a different reality.

BLAKE: I can tell you what the two ends look like to us. Looks like, in one direction, if you want to think in terms of linear, which is not right, it's eternity. In the other direction, it's eternity the other way.

THERRY: Exactly.

BLAKE: Beyond.

THERRY: See there's a crazy phenomenon, that when you look into the future which is Space or the illusion of Space, you reconvert your thinking back into Time, hence you use the phrases Eternity. Because time is what controls illusions. See, we are locked in time, but we can move freely through Space.

BLAKE: Eternity is a diplomatic way of saying I don't know what is going on here.

DUNCAN: Well let me put it a little more bluntly--I don't know what the fuck's going on here. (laughter) I don't know; maybe I should just quit now for the time being.

THERRY: Well, perhaps you should decide or try to understand what it is you're really seeking. If you're seeking information that has reference to what exactly controls the illusion, then you're wasting your time, because from this level which is within the illusion, you'll never understand anything that's outside of it.

DUNCAN: Well I still haven't understood conductivity and receptivity, but I kind of get the feeling that you're not telling me.

THERRY: But it's impossible for you to understand it; your language won't let you... you have to experience it first.

DUNCAN: Right now, or for human.

THERRY: On this level, period.

DUNCAN: Then how come I can understand frequency to whatever degree?

THERRY: Only because frequency exists on this level.

DUNCAN: And conductivity and receptivity don't?

THERRY: Let me go into your mind to see what coding your really looking for... (pause) Okay, I'm allowed to tell you that both conductivity and receptivity are within this reality... and that both have an effect on the Ahappenings within what you call 'your space'. The rest you have to experience them yourself... It is an intricate part of what makes the illusion possible.

DUNCAN: And time doesn't exist on this level.

THERRY: No, Time is the controlling factor. It isn't doesn't exist in the same way that Space exists. Your perception can perceive Space, and it can perceive the passing of time but it cannot perceive Time, itself. Therefore, how can you understand something that you may not, and cannot perceive?

DUNCAN: I don't know; I thought I had a pretty good understanding of time relative to three days ago.

BLAKE: We could perceive Space?


DUNCAN: Can't you see all around?

THERRY: Yea, you work with Space all the time. You have mobility in Space.

BLAKE: You can't perceive Time; just the passage of it.

THERRY: That is correct. The affects of time, and hence-- Yea. Hence, you can have a pretty good understanding of time, but you can't have a real understanding of it.

BLAKE: Can we see the affects of conductivity, or ah, can we see the affects of the upper level patterns?

THERRY: Yea, you can, but you don't recognize them as such... yet.

BLAKE: Down here?

THERRY: Yea. See if you have no labels, and no definition to apply such non-existent labels, and understanding or awareness cannot exist.

DUNCAN: So why do we even talk about Primedial and all that then?

THERRY: Because when you speak of things within the illusion, it is possible to have an understanding by using the axiom of such it exists. And you can go from there and create an understanding of it.

DUNCAN: So how can we talk about--how can we try to describe what Primedial is? Say it's unbounded energy or passive energy. I understand what you're saying, but the seeming discrepancy to me is I'll do fine trying to understand certain things that are seemingly outside of the illusion, and then other times you'll tell me that it's fruitless. So I don't understand--

THERRY: Because you're trying to get too deeply into it. You're no longer accepting the axiom that it exists; now you try to investigate `it', and you can't do it. Language won't allow it.

DUNCAN: Is the life-force inside the illusion? Mind-force?


DUNCAN: Great- Force?


DUNCAN: So if I stay under life-force and mind-force, everything will be fine?



BLAKE: What do you mean if?

DUNCAN: Got no choice.

THERRY: If you stay inside the bubble of creation, your understanding will be relatively okay, but if you try to investigate the nature of the bubble itself, you'll find areas where you'll get lost. For instance, you understand quite well the concept of a continuum, but if you try to investigate the nature of a continuum, that which created it, you'll get lost; it's impossible because you're now outside the illusion.

BLAKE: Now if one encounters that outside--can one be outside the illusion on upper levels?

THERRY: No. Where awareness exists, you are within an illusion. Hence the law, you can see everything below you; very little that's on par to you. If it's par to you, all you see is your circle of awareness, but you see nothing that is above you.

BLAKE: Okay, well you said that if you were-- So you said that when you're in the Now, you, you're not aware of time, and you're not aware of awareness either?

THERRY: Well, see the awareness factor is different. The whole phenomenon of creation is different when you're in the illusion because, when you're in the illusion, you're using only language-that's where the awareness factor comes into it. But when you're outside of time, outside of the illusion--

BLAKE: Is that being in the Now?

THERRY: Yea, language doesn't exist in that same way, hence the entire phenomenon is different.

BLAKE: Oh, so you're out of the illusion when you're in the Now.


BLAKE: That means that there is a chance to have understanding of all these things you're telling Skie you can't have understanding of while you're there.

THERRY: That is correct.

BLAKE: But when you get down here you lose it?

THERRY: That is correct because of the veils of forgetfulness.

DUNCAN: Ohhhh.

BLAKE: Okay, but--

THERRY: You have to go back to the What-If, But. In order to understand it, you have to go to the What-If, But.

BLAKE: Yea, okay, you got to get to the windows.


BLAKE: To understand it.


BLAKE: Alright, while you're in the illusion, and you're not at the window, or in the window, is there any residue left over ever?


BLAKE: From the experience?


BLAKE: Okay.

DUNCAN: So you'll know you know, but you won't know what you know.


DUNCAN: "I know." " What d'you know?" , " I don't know!"

THERRY: But, when you get back down into the illusion, you'll know more than the others who are in that same illusion. You won't know why or how but you'll know there's--you'll know more.

DUNCAN: Yea. So the whole reason why we can't just go ahead and do this now is cause we'd get destroyed if we went out there by various forces?

THERRY: I'm not understanding your question.

DUNCAN: Why can't you just take out into the Now and show me the whole thing and explain it so that I know the whole thing and I come back happy. Is it because you don't want to or because I'd get destroyed in the process?

THERRY: I already have, and all you remember from it is the long tunnel.

DUNCAN: Naaa. You got to be kidding me! (laughter) That's all?

THERRY: That's all you remember.

DUNCAN: You told me everything, everything there is to know?

THERRY: Showed you.

DUNCAN: Everything!

THERRY: That's correct.

DUNCAN: Oh jeez.

THERRY: The only thing that you remember is that long tunnel, that long traveling.

DUNCAN: It wasn't that long.

THERRY: Because I knew that that's all you would remember once you got within the illusion `cause that's in the order of things. It's the way things are.

DUNCAN: So it doesn't matter.

THERRY: That's why inside you have a lot of information that you don't realize you have that you do speak of. How often have you come up and told me that when you begin answering a question, I mean, you come out with a whole lot of things that you don't know where they come from. That's because you know, but it's on the other side of the illusion, and it's your higher forces bring it down. So all of the things that you seemingly bring into this level, that's where it came from because you guys were in the Now. You've touched the thread of Creation. You've seen the loom upon which the fabric of Creation comes. But once you get back down to this level you can't remember any of it.

BLAKE: Is it possible to be aware in the Now?

THERRY: Of course. I've already said you have awareness, but it's so different that--

BLAKE: Oh, that's right.

THERRY:--once you're in this level there's no awareness of it.

BLAKE: Okay.

DUNCAN: So if I can get dual awareness can I maintain a link?

THERRY: It's possible, but I've never known anybody to waste a gift that way.

DUNCAN: Why would that be a waste, or is that a silly question?

THERRY: Well, again, I don't expect you to understand it, but if you gain success with your independent dual awareness, you're going to use it to understand the illusion, not to understand from where the illusion comes. That's just the way the order of things are. You can't hope to return to the Now until after you've mastered the illusion. So it doesn't matter how far you go along the Path of the Grand Awakening, you will still use all your aspects to understand the illusion, `cause that's the only way you can break free from it.

BLAKE: Now, if I mention an experience, can you help me to--can you label something for me?

THERRY: I can try to give you the language, yes.

BLAKE: It's pretty simple. Way back, I was in some kind of awareness factor that I seemed to be in some great void tumbling totally disorientated, and I felt as though the only way that I got back here is that someone, like yourself saved me from wherever I was at. It was like the awareness was totally different, and I was wondering if that, if I somehow became aware of the Now that I shouldn't have done at that point in time.

THERRY: No, that wouldn't be the Now, even though it was a different awareness factor; it was probably one of the outer dimensions. `Cause if you have an awareness factor of a void, that's usually an outer dimensions where you're in the darkness of Non-Creation. It's a state of potentials rather than--

BLAKE: I thought the darkness of Non-Creation is the Now.

THERRY: Not necessarily. There are whole dimensions that are yet void.

BLAKE: Oh, okay. It was somewhat disturbing.

THERRY: Yea. See, when you're in such a place, because it is non-creation, there's no reference points.

BLAKE: Yea, I, absolutely none. I was just totally out of control, in a void.

THERRY: Yea, and the only way you can find yourself there is if you don't try to find a reference point from that point. You have to follow the threads of creation.

BLAKE: Okay, now, if people wind up--if an individual winds up in a state like that, is it because a teacher brought him there to experience it, or because they did something stupid? Generally.

THERRY: It could be both, but usually it's part of a lesson.

DUNCAN: So let's go back to the experience where I was the Sentinel.


DUNCAN: You told me that that was sitting at the borders of the Now.


DUNCAN: So that awareness factor I had at that time, that was still of the Illusion?

THERRY: Yes, because remember, you had both.

DUNCAN: Yea, I was in the middle.

THERRY: Yea, so you had more than one type of awareness.

DUNCAN: So, if I had been totally on the other side, I wouldn't remember it now?

THERRY: Correct. You were at the spot where the Veils of Forgetfulness normally are, so for all practical purposes, however inaccurate, you WERE the veil which separates the two. That was when you were one with the Ankh. How'd you like that?

DUNCAN: What you just said, or the experience?

THERRY: The experience.

DUNCAN: Well, I don't know if this really is the answer to your question, but I wish I had the chance to do it again now that I know what I know. (laughter)

THERRY: Who knows, maybe one day you will when you're ready to ascend the next level.

DUNCAN: I was telling Tim the other day, I could sit here and think about it for a while. I don't get much in terms of understanding, I don't think, by thinking about it, but still--

THERRY: Yea, it's the same thing as if you go to a store, or you go to a movie. It's a fabulous experience but thinking about it afterwards is not going to gain you any more than what you already have.


THERRY: If it does anything at all, it helps you obtain validity for alter-realities. You know what's funny? I'd like to see you try to explain that to the average person.

DUNCAN: Well I could do it; I could explain it, they just couldn't understand it. Wouldn't mean anything.

THERRY: Yea, they'd simply say," ah, you just had--let your imagination run away with you. What are you, on drugs or something? Just a hallucination." You were saying Tim?

BLAKE: What's the due process and/or the nature of having a thought of awareness when you're in a state or reality where you are just going with the flow and are just dragged along by Karma? What's the nature of coming up with the conclusion of `hey, I'm here. This is an illusion.' What's the nature and due-process of how that thought comes to the mind?

THERRY: Language won't allow you to understand that. There are no words in the English language to explain such a phenomenon. Now you're trying to understand the nature of the threads of creation themselves, and in order to have that explanation, you have to get out of the illusion, and you wouldn't gain it once you returned anyway.

BLAKE: I see. So the important thing is how to bring it about, not why-where it comes from.

THERRY: Yea. It's either there or it's not there. Once it's there, then you accept it as the axiom, and you go from there.

BLAKE: Right, but is there methods to bring it to the for-front of your mind at will?

THERRY: No. That's like the concept of nature/nurture. Does one come from the other? Where does man's intelligence come from? Does it come from nature? Or does it really come from nurture?

BLAKE: Probably both.

THERRY: That's the big battle that Science has.

DUNCAN: Nurture's part of nature, so it would have to be nature. Which is molded by nurture in different ways.

THERRY: No, it's by both of them because they are one.

DUNCAN: Oh, okay.

THERRY: Each has their own respective influence which cannot exist without the other because each has the other as borders, or each controls the other in its own way.

BLAKE: There's a catalyst at work that causes you to have these thoughts.

THERRY: Yes there is.

BLAKE: What's this catalyst?

THERRY: Recursive Dialusion.

DUNCAN: It's everywhere.

THERRY: You've got to bear in mind that to understand how or why things appear seemingly out of nowhere, you would first have to accept that there are illusions on each level. And the only reason why you have the illusion on this level is because you're using the Emotional Interchange Interface between the Ka and the Ba, respective to each level, and hence it filters down. But, because the interface is not perfect, things get changed, and when emotions enter it, they become amplified and confused. Hence, bemusement.

DUNCAN: So I got a good idea. Since you took me into the Now and showed me everything there was to know, though I don't remember any of it, can't we just go and learn all about illusion and remember all of that?


DUNCAN: Why not? Because that way at least I know what it is that I'm capable of, and what I should and shouldn't waste my time with, like we talked about levitation--

THERRY: Just because I do it doesn't necessarily mean you'll come to do it.

DUNCAN: Can a man aspire to do that?

THERRY: Yes. Man can and will, if he survives long enough, master the illusion.

DUNCAN: But right now it's not in the order of things?

THERRY: Right now it is not in the order of things.

BLAKE: He may master this illusion but then when he transmigrates, he going to have to deal with the next illusion?

THERRY: That is correct.

DUNCAN: Yea, but I want to do them all at one fell swoop.

THERRY: Can't. That's not in the order of things either.

DUNCAN: You can go into the Now and know everything about it and the other side, and all the unknown aspects--

THERRY: What good is that?

BLAKE: You didn't descend that way, so you probably can't ascend that way, all at once.

DUNCAN: I don't want to ascend, I just want to write it down.

THERRY: You can't. (laughter) Even if you could, you wouldn't be able to read your writing, `cause it's from a different language. Look how much trouble you have reading the language of the alter.

DUNCAN: Yea, I have a relatively large amount of trouble.

THERRY: And the language that you'd be writing in is even more confusing.

DUNCAN: So if I understand what you're telling me, it's easier to understand everything that's outside illusion than it is to understand illusion?

THERRY: What I'm telling you is according to law. You can see everything that is below you; you can only see your own circle of awareness on par to you; and you see nothing that is above you.

DUNCAN: So what does that have to do with my--I don't see the connection.

THERRY: You're asking to see something that is above you.

DUNCAN:Well, let's forget about that; I'm going to stop asking that. Now I have a new question.

THERRY: Alright.

DUNCAN: If you told me you took me into the Now and showed me the whole workings of it and the only thing is I can't remember it, and then if I say, well, why don't we do the same thing in illusion, you say, you can't; it's not in the order of things. That gives me the impression that once you're outside, you're in the Now, that's all relatively simple. It's when you get into Maya, and everything's all screwed up, that it becomes ten times more difficult to understand?

THERRY: That is correct because now Karma enters it.

DUNCAN: So with that in mind I could see why if you have dual-awareness, you would spend it inside the illusion.


DUNCAN: Okay, well, that makes sense now.

THERRY: See, I would not have been able to take you out into the Now if it not had been written in your Karma. Because even I cannot destroy the Golden Tally.

DUNCAN: Wait a minute. If it had not been written in my Karma?

THERRY: Yea, if it were not for the fact that your Karma allowed me to, I would not have been able to take you on those joy-rides.

DUNCAN: Joy-rides! So how do I go about being better able to understand other languages?

THERRY: Well, this may sound crazy, but you have to use understand, forgive, and love. Plus--

BLAKE: That's the Universal translator, yes?

THERRY: Yes. Plus, look to the What-If, But. There are keys in there that will go a long way towards helping you understand things. Remember the phrase `in case we get too lost we can have windows there, etc., etc.? I believe some windows were pointed out to you; you were taught how to use some windows. Which could be used from within the Illusion.

DUNCAN: D'you mean TV and country music? Or are you talking about other ones?

THERRY: Well, those two can be used as windows, but it doesn't change the fact that you were taught the phenomena of windows and how to use it.

DUNCAN: I was.

THERRY: So it's a matter of holding it sacred. Or at least the process.

DUNCAN: And that's going to allow me to understand other languages?

THERRY: In order to make use of it, you don't realize it but you are using other languages.

DUNCAN: I'm confused. Or perhaps I'm just taking--I don't know.

BLAKE: You understand emotions to a great deal, that's a language.

DUNCAN: Emotions?

BLAKE: Sure. You understand psychology to a degree. That's a language. Patterns of people, just patterns period is another language. And they manifest differently.

THERRY: Plus you're beginning to understand the language of the alters.

DUNCAN: I don't know if I agree with that. The only thing I--

THERRY: I see you use it, so I guess you have to, even though you're not aware of it. You got to remember also that there's going to be many aspects that you will not realize that you have but you do use other languages. I mean if I stand there and see you using them, you don't really think I'm going to accept the fact that you don't believe that you understand them.

DUNCAN: I, I mean I, I understand the words, but that--I don't know what you're talking about. From my point of view I just sit in front of it and I do the same thing I would do if it wasn't there?

THERRY: Uh-huh. That simply means from my point of observation you have the awareness of it; it's simply not within your consciousness just yet. But it's enough there so that you do use it. How else can you come out with some of the stuff that you do?

DUNCAN: What does that have to do with the alter?

THERRY: A lot. Cause it's the same patterns, the same phenomena.

DUNCAN: I don't know what you're talking about.

THERRY: Right, okay. Let's change the subject then.

DUNCAN: I was hoping you would teach me more of the language of the alter.

THERRY: Nice try. I will not give you the powers of creation.

DUNCAN: Well, you gave me whatever you gave me so far.

THERRY: Only because it was within your Karma. I will not override the Golden Scribe just to make you more satisfied.

DUNCAN: Well, if that's your final word, I guess I might as well give up.

BLAKE: Let's talk about gravity waves inside the head.

THERRY: No, let's not.

BLAKE: Is that your final word? (chuckles)

THERRY: Yea. `Cause you're not ready, and for us to speak of that would interfere with the lessons that you're dealing with.

DUNCAN: I have a good question. Remember how we talked about if you close your eyes you can see the waves? What else can you do so if you close your eyes?

THERRY: Are you fishing?

DUNCAN: Yea, why not? I like fishing.

THERRY: It's out of season.

BLAKE: The pond's too big. (chuckles throughout this)

THERRY: Yep. Too big, too deep, and it's out of season.

DUNCAN: Is it against the law though?


DUNCAN: Okay, good. Do I need a fishing permit?


BLAKE: That's a good way to put it.

DUNCAN: I don't know what to ask you. What I want to know, here's a big question--is how come from the individual's point of view, he's always ignorant, and he hardly knows anything, and he's always struggling, but from your point of view everything's fine.

THERRY: Perhaps I see a little bit more than you do.

DUNCAN: Is that the way it's doomed to be forever?

THERRY: Yes. If you're hiding behind barriers, and I'm not, then it's conceivable that I have the advantage of a greater viewpoint.

DUNCAN: Yea, I would agree to that. I just--

THERRY: And all I can do is entice you to put your barriers to rest `cause you don't need them. But all my words are for nothing because you will come out from behind your barriers only when You're ready. So all I can tell you is everything's fine.

DUNCAN: That's too much of an eternal point of view.

THERRY: Yea, yea.

DUNCAN: It is. I mean, there must be a more, a better gage of somebody's progress then the fact well, you know--

THERRY: There is but you keep forgetting it. You used that yesterday, or last night. Remember our conversation last night? It went something like `Oh yeah, you know, it's strange, but when I--'


BLAKE: When I what?

DUNCAN: So what, it's just a measure of how content you are?


DUNCAN: Ah, that ain't enough.

THERRY: That ain't good enough, right? (laughter) Even though when you look at it and you see the vast differences and how much better everything was, that's not good enough a gage to know your own progress, right?

DUNCAN: Well...

THERRY: (laughter) Nice try Charlie Brown. He was talking about he looks back in time and--

DUNCAN: All right! All right! (laughter)

BLAKE: And he sees he's much better off now.

THERRY: Right. He relives what used to be and the various changes etc., etc., and from that he has a scale of his own progress.

BLAKE: Can we talk about the implications of RUTHE? Because I'd like to understand that one.

THERRY: But you're dealing with it, and therefore, you may create eddys of disruptions.

BLAKE: I didn't realize I was dealing with it. Oh, yea, okay.

THERRY: So give it a little while more.


THERRY: I don't think he was aware of that.

BLAKE: That's why I asked the question the way I did `cause I didn't know if Skie had ever started to learn that lesson yet?

DUNCAN: So tell me, tell me.

THERRY: What difference does it make if we pile on one more mystery?

DUNCAN: So, pile.

BLAKE: You tell it in your words. I'd like to hear it from your point of view.

THERRY: It was your experience.

BLAKE: But it was your point of view.


BLAKE: (chuckle) I might have missed something. I'd like to hear it from you.


BLAKE: Really!

THERRY: You're fishing; it's out of fishing season, remember?

DUNCAN: I'm waiting.

BLAKE: A while ago I was traveling down the road in a--you want this on tape? Does it matter?

THERRY: It doesn't matter. People would never believe it anyway. And those who are of a sufficient level to understand or believe it, it won't matter if they have heard it or not.

BLAKE: Okay. Um, I was driving in Florida from college down to Miami.

DUNCAN: In this reality?



BLAKE: And it was like two AM, three AM in the morning; really late at night.

THERRY: It was three AM.

BLAKE: Three AM. And it was semi foggy out. Not semi-foggy--

THERRY: The height of the bewitching hour.

BLAKE: I was going about fifty-five miles an hour and um, all of a sudden, out of a little fog area, there's a lady walking in the middle of my lane with her head down. And I'm not sure of the age but I can just say it was around twenty, maybe twenty, thirty? Apparently. I don't know if that matters. It was hard to say `cause I only--but she was walking and she was right on top of me before I knew it and I had to swerve into, almost off the road and continued and I looked back to see what had happened--I thought maybe I had hit her, and I didn't realize it or something, and when I looked back she was still walking down the road with her head down like nothing had happened. And, uh, by that time a fog bank came behind me and I was driving real fast and I was pretty far down the road, and I had a friend with me who was sleeping at the time and I shook him up, shook him up and told him what happened, and he really didn't believe me, so consequently I turned around--consequently I didn't go back to see why the experience happened. I guess I must have been too scared at the time. And I expected to--I thought maybe I had hit her, but I didn't think I did, so I checked the newspaper in the morning, and there was no, you know, information that someone had died from a car accident or something like that. And uh, it has affected me greatly because it wasn't just the fact that it was almost an accident. It was--there was some aura about her that was an extreme sadness I never felt before.

DUNCAN: So why do you use those letters to describe that?

BLAKE: Because Therry told me who she was. Her name was Ruthe.

DUNCAN: So that's all you know, huh.

BLAKE: Pretty much--

THERRY: Oh no, he knows more than that. But that's all that that little segment, for the time, had to do. There's still more to it.

DUNCAN: Does that have anything to do with the Ruthe of the Bible, or is that something separate.

THERRY: It's one and the same. Now, that wasn't the only time you met her.

BLAKE: When was the other time?

THERRY: You have to use your own memory.

BLAKE: Are you referring to on this physical level, or other levels?

THERRY: Period.

BLAKE: Period. Alright. If you're including alter-realities, yea. Well, I only had a feeling. Now I've got to think in words what particular example you're referring to.

THERRY: Basically she roams the planet. She's still here. She's still looking for her children. For her children is man. When you meet her, the whole time frame around you changes to such a degree, and when you come anywhere close to her, in any form, you feel her, and that sadness is unbelievable. Once you have that experience, it never, never, never leaves you. Never.

DUNCAN: Well, I'm not all that familiar with the story, so I don't-I guess I'll have to read it. I mean, is there a purpose for her doing that, or is she just trapped in something?

THERRY: She's trapped. It is a force, not an entity.

BLAKE: I'm trying to think what I--the exact experience where I met her on an alter-reality.

THERRY: See the thing that he doesn't realize is that you know, normally, when you swerve around somebody, you see them pass you as the car passes them. But that phenomenon didn't exist because as he was going around her, she was not there. She was only in front and behind. But when they were both in the same space, they didn't exist.

BLAKE: Yes, I remember that. It didn't matter if I went straight or not.

THERRY: Right, `cause she's on a different dimension or different reality.

DUNCAN: Well, how can a force be trapped? I thought it was mind force that got trapped by forces. Not forces themselves that get trapped?

THERRY: Well, it is mind-force. Let's put it this way. It is a thought that incarnates.

BLAKE: You say I'm still dealing with it in different ways?

THERRY: Yes. And Ruthe still cries for her children. We who walk the psychic road feel her as that black door which frightens us because it brings with us the possibility that we may be wrong.

DUNCAN: So the fact that somebody goes through an experience like Tim did, what significance does that have?

THERRY: Well, people don't go through those type of experiences unless they're on a special path. They're beacons, for the lack of a better label.

BLAKE: It was beyond profoundness, the effect that it had was hard to describe... It was a deep understanding of the sadness within man as each abandons his own kind... when Man sees an enemy when two humans meet instead of a friend.

DUNCAN: I think I can relate to it. Not that particular circumstance, but--was it just the effect of feeling that presence, or the whole thing of swerving and thinking you hit somebody?

BLAKE: Not that at all. The entity itself--the feelings that I got as a result from of apparently being close to her.

THERRY: You remember how through one of your experiences you were totally changed, totally rewired?

DUNCAN: Yea, but there are several that I--

THERRY: Okay, but it's one of those things. They're beacons that totally rewire you. Your entire psyche changes. You reweave a pattern in your awareness factors. Certain gates get opened that would otherwise not open. I don't mind having this on the library tapes because those who are not on that path wouldn't believe it anyway. To them it would be nothing more then one big ghost story. It goes back to the old cliche. If you don't believe, it doesn't matter what you say, but if you do believe, then it's not necessary to say.

DUNCAN: Well, this reminds me of what may seem to be an unrelated question. But how come, when you go to a lot of these alter-realities, where I usually go to, people very rarely speak to you. They just look at you. Is that part of learning other languages or something?

THERRY: Yes. It's also very big on those realities that you don't override free-will. They will never speak to you unless you speak to them.

DUNCAN: Oftentimes I do and they just look at me. Yea, I guess it's true.

THERRY: `Cause they won't invade your privacy... or you use the language of earth.

BLAKE: Do you think that's just accidentally hitting the wall?

THERRY: Is that it for this time?

DUNCAN: I suppose so.