Arkashean Q&A Session -- 024

SHELLY: So, the other time we were talking about un-solidified autonomy, we were discussing it later and we realized that we had about 3 different ideas of what that might mean.


SHELLY: So, if you could clarify it-what exactly did you mean?

THERRY: Well, first why don't we get the dictionary and read off what autonomy is?

SHELLY: I did.

THERRY: Yeah, you did, but you didn't for this guy- I'll even be so kind as to give you the magic book. (Laughter)

SHELLY: Autonomy; the condition or quality of being self-governing or, 2. is self-government or the right of self-government, self-determination, independence, or, 3. A self-governing state, community or group.

THERRY: Ok. Now if you'll look at yourself as a person or an entity or a state or a government then there is a time in an individual's life when they cease to be under the abject control of their parents and they become under their own, in which case they have achieved autonomy. What happens is with time; they get comfortable with their own decisions. They are no longer worried about if they control themselves or if somebody else is in control of them. That is a solidified autonomy. Now, if autonomy is un-solidified, within the individual then even though politically the individual is capable of self-government, he's so unsure of it that he's never relaxed. He doesn't relax his awareness of being in an autonomous position. He's always on guard, always trying to make very sure that nobody's going to put any limits on me. I'm going to limit myself. I'm going to do what I want, I'm not going to do what you want or what she wants or what he wants or whatever. No, no, no. I'm going to put my own limits. So, an individual who has problems accepting limits in the world, it's because they don't have-they're not solidified in their autonomy.

SHELLY: It sounds sort of like the opposite though. It sounds like they would want people to do things for them. They don't feel that they have their own independence.

THERRY: No, it's because of they have achieved it politically, but they haven't achieved it emotionally. In other words, they're not stable in their autonomy. They are always fearful that somebody else may gain control over them.

SHELLY: You mean they're not confident that they are already autonomous?

THERRY: Exactly. Even though they know they are, or have achieved autonomy because even though they realize that the parents no longer telling them what to do, it's sort of a split situation. Half of them wants their parents to tell them what to do because in that way it shows them that their parents love them. But in another way, they don't want their parents or anybody else telling them what to do because that places limits on them that they don't want to have to deal with.

JACKIE: You mean having parental control, is that the same thing as-

SHELLY: Relinquishing parental control, is that what you're saying? Would that be the same as what?

THERRY: Well, it's-in this case we use parents as the prime focal point only because in early life the parental figure has control and you have to achieve autonomy from those parental figures. Parental in this case is not necessarily father or mother, but whoever is in actual control. And you have to achieve autonomy from them first before you can achieve it from any other aspect of your life.

SHELLY: Isn't that part of what I'm not accepting-is the fact that I'm autonomous and they're not the ones responsible for it?

THERRY: Yes. In your specific case, yeah. You-because they gave you autonomy at a rather early age, you corrupted that meaning and turned it into 'they don't love me, they don't want to be bothered with me.' And, hence, in your case, because you're un-solidified in you autonomy, half of you wants your parents to retain control because that, in your mind, as the expression of love. But, in all other aspects of your life, you don't want anybody to have any control. Hence you fight limits to the sky. So it's that approach-avoidance factor.

SHELLY: So, I'm doing both.

THERRY: Yes. (Laughs) It's almost as though you're playing the game 'if they don't love me, nobody's going to. I'll see to that.'

SHELLY: Right. It's true. I'm always convinced in the beginning that it's going to end in the worse possible way.

THERRY: That's because your autonomy's not solidified. You're not comfortable-

SHELLY: With being alone?

THERRY: Yes, with being autonomous. If somebody makes a suggestion for you, they're butting their nose in.

SHELLY: But there's a part of me that likes being alone. I try to keep a distance so that-then I feel it's safe.

THERRY: Ok, but there's a difference between the time that an individual spends by himself as opposed to the time when an individual is alone.

SHELLY: Well, emotionally I try to-

THERRY: Because there is a difference between being by yourself and being alone.


THERRY: There's a big difference. One is a political choice backed up by the emotions and the other is the sense of abandonment.

SHELLY: And I should be comfortable with being along?

THERRY: You should be comfortable with being alone but you should not have to suffer the abandonment part of it. See, if you were solidified in your autonomy you could be alone, or by yourself rather, for great stretches of time, but not feel alone. Not feel as though the world or people have abandoned you. See, at the moment because of the un-solidified autonomy syndrome you would probably make very strong attachments to the people that you do make them to and then are easily feeling betrayed. Because that goes along with the pattern. And the slightest sign of them not living up to your expectations, then immediately you would beat them to the gun, so to speak. And blow a whole friendship.

SHELLY: Right.

THERRY: Because it hurts less that way when it comes from you.

SHELLY: So I should be able to feel comfortable being alone, I mean being by myself, and not feel that that means that I'm alone.

THERRY: Yeah, but that comes as a reaction to something else. I mean, you couldn't just arbitrarily decide to be comfortable by yourself. It don't work that way. Every cause is becoming an effect for some other causes. And in your case here, the collection of behaviors that you're dealing with is an effect, it's not a cause. The cause of those is your unwillingness to allow other people to have their own set of truths in their own world. You haven't yet accepted that there's a difference between you and others that will never be bridged. It's almost as though the claim to uniqueness doesn't exist for you. It's almost as though you don't believe it should exist and therefore, nobody is unique. If they don't serve your specific pawn, they they've rejected you.

SHELLY: Yeah, I'm always putting a 'but' on it-yeah you have the right to be unique, but only up to a point.

THERRY: Exactly.

SHELLY: So how do I go about getting rid of that, just by catching myself-


SHELLY: -when I'm starting to get my feelings hurt-

THERRY: Yes. Just because something is different, it doesn't mean it has to be wrong. Remember, you have a set of truths that runs your universe, and other people have a set of truth that runs their universe.

SHELLY: Right.

THERRY: And it doesn't matter how much it want to be, their set of truths will never run your universe, and your set of truths will never run their universe. The Claim to Uniqueness says no. Cause, your set of truth is supported by your army, and your army in this case is a combination of your psychological screens, your value systems and your emotions. They support your set of truths. Well, the same thing applies to somebody else. They have the same army that supports their sets of truth and guards their illusions. So when you blur that, then it's almost as though you've elected yourself God-that you should rule not only your own universe, but there's too. That's because you have not accepted the full reign of the Claim to Uniqueness. And that goes back to the mistaken coding of the expression of the presence or the absence of love as it applied to your folks.

SHELLY: Hmmm. Seems like I'm taking the philosophy that I shouldn't be affected by what other people do, it shouldn't affect my life-

THERRY: That's easier said that done-

SHELLY: but what I'm doing then is just figuring 'well I won't care about anybody' and that way they won't affect me.

THERRY: Yeah. And it obviously doesn't work. Not only is it not right, it doesn't work.

SHELLY: That's true.

THERRY: Because you end up spending most of your time in pain. Most of your time is spent with resentments. You're always looking around seeing if there's a way or if there's a need to get even with somebody.

SHELLY: I don't know if I feel so much like that...

THERRY: See, that pattern has 3 things that go along with it. The need to get even because you're always on guard, safeguarding against limitations. The feeling of abandonment where you really don't care, because you didn't want to be with them anyway.

SHELLY: Yeah, that's a big one.

THERRY: And the search for something but you don't know what it is you're searching for, but I'm afraid to meet it anyway because I might get hurt.

SHELLY: Right.

THERRY: Hence, you're frozen. You're stalled. Your autonomy is stalled and it will remain stalled until you accept the reign of The Claim to Uniqueness and the implication thereof.

SHELLY: I call that not being affected by what other people do in their lives, not letting it affect me, without necessarily that means I don't care for them. How do I care for them but still not have them affect me?

THERRY: Well, everybody will always affect you. You are part of the human specie. As part of that specie, there's no way you that cannot be affected by, but just because they have an affect upon you doesn't mean that they have to put limits on you. You have to learn to accept that.

SHELLY: Ohh, so just because I get my feelings hurt doesn't mean I have to stop my life.

THERRY: Exactly.

SHELLY: Ohhhh.

THERRY: If you get your feelings hurt, it's your fault, not theirs.

SHELLY: Should I not be getting my feelings hurt-see, that's what I mean, how do you-

THERRY: It's easier said that done, but eventually that's where you'll get.

SHELLY: Really?

THERRY: Yeah. Because once you accept the Claim to Uniqueness, truly, and you find that in normal everyday life you're going to expect and you're going to demand things of people. And, obviously because their universe has a different set of truths that you universe has, therefore their manners are going to be different, they're just not going to obey yours. 'Well, who's she', or whatever.


THERRY: Or, I can't be bothered with that right now. I'm too tired, or I'm busy. So they're just not going to succumb to your demands. Well, if you get your fingers hurt, or your feelings, or any other part of you, all you need do is-oops, I did something wrong. They didn't do anything wrong. They simply followed the laws and the truths of their universe. You did something wrong.

SHELLY: What did I do wrong? Oh, expecting them to act the way I want them to-

THERRY: Bingo. There a lot of people will say but if you love somebody, but if you this, if you this, that-that don't mean anything. Those are just rationalizations, excuses for you to get your own way. One thing's for sure, if you're feeling emotional pain, it is the universe's way, it is your universal way, as well as the Grand Universe's way of tapping you on the shoulder saying that, 'hey, you're doing something that is inappropriate for the goals and the games that you're playing. Notice I didn't use the word wrong.

SHELLY: Right.

THERRY: Because when it comes to Karmic situations the word right and the word wrong doesn't even exist. Those are Christian creations. Mind control. Everything is simply appropriate for you goals or inappropriate for your goals or they are appropriate for the situation, or they are inappropriate for the situation. Cause something my be very appropriate for one situation and very inappropriate for another situation. Perfect example is if you're going to the beach, you're going to go in a skinny, bikini-type outfit-well, that's very appropriate. But I'd like to see that, see you dress the same way and go to a wedding.

SHELLY: Ohhhh. (Laughter)

THERRY: It's just not appropriate. Plus you can be clad in the nude to take a shower but I don't think a wedding would like that either.

SHELLY: Right.

THERRY: So absolutely everything has to get back to the situation in order to find what is appropriate and what is not. And it is that that you need to get a hold of in order to train your emotions. Specifically, the Continuum of Expectations and Demands.

SHELLY: So my sensitivity, so to speak, isn't sensitivity at all.

THERRY: It's selfishness.


THERRY: It's pure selfishness all the way across the board. Again, you have to bear in mind too-

SHELLY: Selfish, not in the negative sense--

THERRY: Anything that causes you pain is negative. But you have to bear in mind too, that according to Universal Law, each individual must walk the Road of Self if he is to find the Road of Unity.

SHELLY: Is that what this is?

THERRY: Yes. You're walking the Road to Self, and boy, are you walking the Road to Self. (Laughter) To such a degree that it's interfering-

SHELLY: Walking the Road to Self, that means realizing your autonomy?

THERRY: No, it means you're self-orientated.

SHELLY: I'm self-?

THERRY: Orientated.

JOANNY: Oh, and you have to walk that?


SHELLY: But am I aiming towards anything, which is dealing with my autonomy-

THERRY: Right. You're learning. Remember, the whole specie is just a little baby. So you can't expect the adults of that specie to be any more grown up than the specie is. And the specie is just a baby, therefore it is self-orientated. We are in the age of self-consciousness, so there will be the extremely, extremely developed individuals who is not selfish in different ways.

SHELLY: There will be the extremely developed individuals?

THERRY: I said extremely developed individuals-


THERRY: -who is not selfish. Because this is the age of self-consciousness. The specie is in the age where it is recognizing the existence of itself and its place within universal life forms. So, every individual is going to be basically selfish. Part of growth is whereby each individual rises above and beyond the pure selfishness that exists

SHELLY: Which you can't do until you've taken that to the max?

THERRY: That is correct.

SHELLY: Then you realize 'that's not right.'

THERRY: You cannot change what you see no need to change.

SHELLY: Right.

THERRY: And the experience of the inappropriateness of pain is what serves as the impetus for change. In short, that translates into a small, little phrase-when the pain gets big enough, you'll change.


JOA: But you have to figure out the source of your pain, first, though?

THERRY: Yes. Gotta make sure you that don't kill your dog because your cat ate the canary.

JOA: That's kind of a hard thing, though finding out the source.

THERRY: Nobody said it would be easy.

JOA: Hmm. Because in what you're telling her, she's going to have to figure out the-

THERRY: She already knows what the source is.

JOA: Yeah.

THERRY: But, again, it reminds me of another phrase-just because you have a brain doesn't mean that you're gonna' use it.

SHELLY: Yeah, well, that's true. But I don't understand exactly how I got to the (something) state, logically. I've just been busy thinking everybody else is wrong. Everybody else needs to change. (Laughter)

THERRY: That's the God complex. And that's an effect of you not recognizing the Uniqueness. You have to bear in mind that the affairs of man, the specie, is like a fabric. Everything works together. And if one thread of the fabric is inappropriately used then the whole fabric is distorted. So if you inappropriately deny the existence or the validity of the Uniqueness factor of the individual, then the whole dream quality's going to be inappropriate. It's going to cause you mutual problems. See, the Uniqueness quality is modified by the need to become one-which is again the pair, is modified by the various games that we play. But if you, it's sort of like, um, trying to play a game where the most important rule is missing. The game's going to be convoluted. It's not going to work very well.

SHELLY: I tend to find myself along with getting my feelings hurt; I tend to set myself up almost from the beginning-

THERRY: Of course-always, always, constantly. Because you are still testing your autonomy. You will consistently continue to test until finally the pain will get big enough and you'll decide-'hey, there's got to be a better way.'

SHELLY: I think I need to figure out from the get-go don't even put myself in that situation-

THERRY: See, you're not going to be able to do anything at all until you first address the Uniqueness and it's necessity.

JOANNY: Until she?

THERRY: Until she addresses the Uniqueness and its necessity. The Law governing the Uniqueness-

SHELLY: The first is stop being hurt by things that are happening-

THERRY: No, that's going to be a waste of time. You're not going to be able to do it.

SHELLY: What should I do?

THERRY: You just have to address the validity of Uniqueness and what that means.

SHELLY: That doesn't mean stop getting upset because people aren't doing things my way.

THERRY: Well, that's only a second-generation thing. The first generation is to recognize that people are not yours. They didn't come to this planet, or they didn't experience life just to please you.

SHELLY: Well, I feel like I know that.

THERRY: Yeah, sure. (Laughs) Even when you say that, even when you don't say it I still hear the but...(Laughter)

SHELLY: Well, I was obviously going to say 'but I don't believe it.' (Laughter) But, logically I know that, I know the whole world isn't here for me, you know, logically I know that that isn't true.

THERRY: So in short, what you need to do is get your army together-put them all under one commander. If you know it logically and you can't accept it emotionally, that means the emotional aspect of you army is off on its own.

SHELLY: So, what can I do?

THERRY: Bring it back under control. And the only way you can do that is to change your attitudes concerning Uniqueness.

SHELLY: Right, doesn't that mean I have to stop myself every time I find myself getting upset-

THERRY: Right-

SHELLY: -so I just stop and say-

THERRY: You're doing something wrong. Not 'they're doing something wrong', you're doing something wrong.

SHELLY: Right.

JOANNY: The only thing that confused me about all this is I thought the, our object was to become more given to serve the All- so I don't quite understand-so we should be independent.

THERRY: Yeah, you have no choice, you have to be independent. You can serve the All until you yourself are together. You can't give to another or sell to another that which is not yours. The life force was given to you to experience and it is you choice to take up whatever energies you have, and whatever values you have to either serve the Holy Path or to serve the Unholy Path. That's your choice. But you can't make that decision and serve anybody but yourself until you know who you are.

JOANNY: So, then there's a period where you must be self-involved-

THERRY: You have no choice.

JOANNY: You have no choice?

THERRY: You have no choice. There is nothing else. You have to gather self and solidify the I.D. Once the-your own image of self and your own place in the Universe with respect to the rest of the species, once that is solidified, and you are comfortable with who you are, then and only then are you qualified to make the decision as to what you're going to do with your life. Up until that point, you don't have a life. All you have are battles.

SHELLY: Is that what you meant when you said you're not going to fix it until you know it's broken?

THERRY: Right. If it's not broken, don't fix it. Leave it alone. Chances are, 99 percent of the time if you come across an error the first place you should look is your language. And 99 percent of the time you'll find the problem right there-you're language is not right. Remember, language gets its power not because it is the tool that is used to communicate to others, true, that is very important. But that's not where the power of language comes from. The power of language comes from because it is the only tool that's-that's important enough to be repeated-it is the ONLY tool that you use to communicate to yourself. What you communicate to yourself with is what's going to create your illusions, and illusions are the driving force for reality.

SHELLY: Does that make sense?

JOANNY: Yeah, that's very interesting. Because all I've been walking around thinking is that it's selfish to be in any way self-involved. The idea is to break that-

THERRY: Selfishness in moderation is not negative. It's a very positive thing. Charity begins at home. If you wish to be kind to others you have to begin by being kind to yourself. Look at it like a wire, little bb's that are loaded into a tube. Well, once that tube is filled, you're not going to be able to let any more bb's into that tube until you let some of them out. Emotions and interactions are that way, if you expect love you have to give love to others in order to have new bb's of love to come in.

SHELLY: Oh, I see.

THERRY: Whatever you give to others is going to come back around sooner or later and it's going to be at the other end of that tube and you're going to experience it. If you give hate and suspicion, that's what you're going to receive-hate and suspicion. If you give love, then that's what you're going to receive-love. If you give understanding and tolerance, that's what you're going to receive. You create your future by the things that you do, by the attitudes that you live by today.

SHELLY: I get upset about stupid things. Like last night, when we were doing the dishes, I finished washing, then I started to wipe the counter, Susan says no, we don't use that sponge, we use this sponge, and I thought, what's the difference.

THERRY: Yeah, but, see-

SHELLY: I thought-who cares-

THERRY: Yeah, from you-who cares. Now you're dealing with limitations again. Somebody else's limitation, their process, so you became irritated simply because you wanted the universe here to be the same as yours.

SHELLY: You know I go this whole thing of 'oh, that's so stupid', even little things like that are constantly doing that to me.

THERRY: But there is reasons, if you want to go into it. There are always reasons why people's universes are different.

SHELLY: What do you mean there's reasons?

THERRY: Well, for instance, let's take the sponge situation. The sponge that you use to wash your dishes should not be used to wipe your counters, your refrigerator, and your floors-

SHELLY: Well, not the floors-

THERRY: Why not the floors?

SHELLY: Because they're dirty.

THERRY: Why? It's soap and water, what's the difference?

SHELLY: Because it'll stay on the sponge.

THERRY: OH. Well, why can't it stay on the sponge from the counters and refrigerators?

SHELLY: Because it's not as dirty.

THERRY: Why? Oh, you mean it has to be a special type of dirt before it's ok for you?

SHELLY: No, it's a special degree of dirt.

THERRY: Oh. (Laughter) And who's going to determine where that line is?

SHELLY: Right. Well, that's what it comes down to.

THERRY: Point well-chosen?

SHELLY: No, I understand exactly why I got annoyed-

THERRY: So, it is a valid situation, but the difference here is you're fighting limitations. It's back to what we said earlier.

SHELLY: Right-why should I care if you want to use a certain sponge? I took it as a total annoyance, I was doing something wrong. I was told to not do something-

THERRY: Right, that's the key.

SHELLY: -that I think is logical.

THERRY: So, you were playing God again.

SHELLY: Right. I do it all the time, it drives me crazy.

THERRY: Well, you must like it.

SHELLY: I'm going to have to catch myself constantly, all day long.

THERRY: So what?

SHELLY: Even in my thoughts.

THERRY: So what?

SHELLY: There's another thing I do with people. A lot of times when I first meet people it's like instantly I know I'm either going to like this person or not. Is that the same thing? I shouldn't make judgments like that?

THERRY: Well, in the English language there's another word for that.


THERRY: Prejudice.

SHELLY: Nooo, it's not.

THERRY: Why not? What's the definition of prejudice?

SHELLY: Oh, ok. I'm thinking of racial prejudice. Ok. Yeah, well it is prejudice, but-

THERRY: Buts again. (Laughter)

SHELLY: But sometimes it seems accurate. Sure enough I realize it turns out this is someone I don't want to spend my time with.

THERRY: Uh-huh.

SHELLY: And when I like someone it turns out that I really do like this person, and get along well.

THERRY: Uh-huh. Do you think that maybe you follow your own biases? Do you think it's possible that some of the people that you don't like is simply because you never really gave them a chance- you've already predetermined, and therefore, you would not give the same opportunity?

SHELLY: No, it's not 100 percent accurate. There are some people I don't like at first, then as I get to know them I like them.


SHELLY: So it's not right all the time, but it's right the majority of the time.

THERRY: Oh, ok.

SHELLY: That's not a good thing to do either, though?

THERRY: Well, that's for you to decide. It's your life.

SHELLY: What I'm saying-is that the same thing-

THERRY: But I think it's a shame-

SHELLY: It's still a part of the same game-

THERRY: Yes it is. I think it's a shame to meet somebody and put them in an enemy camp when it could have been put in a friendship camp.

SHELLY: Oh. It's that fear thing again.

THERRY: Yes. Perhaps that individual won't accept you, so therefore he's no good.


THERRY: He's a no-goodnic; we'll put him in the enemy camp.


THERRY: Because I love him, and he ain't gonna' love me back. Alright for you, I'm gonna' hurt myself, then you'll be sorry.

SHELLY: So, in any situation where it's appropriate to make a decision almost immediately like that?

THERRY: Sure, there are hundreds of thousands of situations where you have to make split-second decisions, but meeting strangers is not one of them.

SHELLY: So I shouldn't go overboard with that either?

THERRY: You shouldn't go overboard with anything. Again, don't' expect that just because we sit and talk about psychic phenomena, and the interflow of energies and illusions, don't get to think that that is suddenly going to make a new woman out of you. Hey, it took you who knows how many years to get you the way you are, it ain't gonna' change overnight.

SHELLY: No, no, I know. The reason I was asking was to know what main areas I should stop doing that.

THERRY: Well, it's simple. Stop doing the things that cause you pain. Of course, you can be funny on that, too. Oops, I stepped on a nail, oh pain-that means I got to stop walking. (Laughter)

SHELLY: Yeah, I do that too-

THERRY: Oooo a cough-that hurts, that means I got to stop breathing. (Laughter) The key is moderation to everything. Does that do it?

SHELLY: Yeah. It's kind of what I thought you meant. What she had thought the other was she was saying no he was saying no you shouldn't be autonomous. We didn't understand which it was.

JOANNY: Yeah, because I obviously mixed up, I misconstrued, that you mean dependent was being selfish-it was not thinking about people. That's how I looked at the word, and hence-

THERRY: Well, ok. There is a part of that, except that that's an overboard view. There's a fine line between mutual satisfaction of needs and slavery.


SHELLY: Between mutual satisfaction and slavery? What does that refer to?

THERRY: It refers to you not being selfish by doing things for others as opposed to you being on a cross where everything you do is for others, and I don't exist any more.


THERRY: There's a fine line there. I mean when you do things for other people that comes under mutual satisfaction of needs where each share and each get something out of the interaction. Slavery, on the other hand, is where the-you have an exaggerated expectations and demands, and the other person just has no rights to Uniqueness. Does that worry you? There's a Twilight episode, Twilight Zone?


THERRY: There's an episode about death that deals with that. Where the child suddenly gains new powers and is forcing everybody to-

SHELLY: Oh yeah-I saw that one, Billy Monday-

THERRY: Well, you have a way of trying to be Billy Monday.

SHELLY: Oh! But I'm not evil about it. Except to myself. (Laughter) I'm not doing myself a whole lot of good, that's for sure.

THERRY: Right. That's where your pain comes from.

JOA: What did you mean earlier when you said she needs to understand the Claim to Uniqueness? In the (something) scenario earlier?

THERRY: It simply means that she is a member of the specie man-

JOA: Yeah.

THERRY: She came to Earth to experience life. The life that she received and the games that she chose to play are hers. Another member of the specie did the exact same thing, and have the exact same rights. And each individual is unique unto their own, their self-government, they're self-sustained. In short, if I pinch myself, you're not the one who's going to feel the hurt. I am, because there's a barrier there that keeps us separated. And it doesn't matter what we do, that barrier will never be crossed. That barrier is there because of the Law of the Claim to Uniqueness. There can never be 2 exactly the same.

JOA: But within that there comes the assumption that people have to take responsibility for their own actions.

THERRY: Exactly. People have to take responsibility for their own actions, not for the actions of somebody else. So, therefore, if you demand that other people satisfy you because of your wants, that's slavery. That's no longer mutual satisfaction of needs.

JOANNY: I need homework. I feel that I need homework. With the situation of being married, having the baby, and this-what can I work on? What am I supposed to learn?

THERRY: You're already doing it.

JOANNY: I'm doing it?

THERRY: You're already doing it. You do it naturally.

JOANNY: I do it naturally?

THERRY: Yeah. You already have the gift of walking the Holy Path. It comes natural to you.

JOANNY: Then what I have to get rid of this-this punitive-

THERRY: The Cross Syndrome-

JOANNY: Cause' see, I gotta ask for one more because obviously I'm a shit-

THERRY: Right-

JOANNY: -and I don't feel anything for anybody-

THERRY: Right. Yes.

JOANNY: That's what I have to lose.

THERRY: See, what you need to do is borrow my ladder. (Laughter) You know what that's all about?

JOANNY: Yeah, that's the funniest line I ever heard.

SHELLY: I'd like this one to read between the lines.

THERRY: Say it for the tape. Borrow my ladder.

JOANNY: Borrow my ladder. You're going to need help climbing up on that cross. (Laughter) That's funny.

THERRY: Makes it easier to climb up there.

JOANNY: Alright, I got a lot of that guilt stuff to work on.

THERRY: Right.

JOANNY: You know, the other question I have, I know you do this too, um, but maybe for different reasons. I spent an enormous percent of my time with in fantasy-

SHELLY: Oh, yeah.

THERRY: There's nothing wrong with that.

JOANNY: But, it's just an enormous amount of time. And the fantasy's all very peaceful, and they're usually in England, walking down a little-I mean maybe they're other centuries-they seem to be-

THERRY: There's nothing wrong with that.

JOANNY: There's nothing wrong with it?

THERRY: Nothing wrong with that.

JOANNY: Maybe it was the amount of I wondered about. I thought, 'oh boy, you really want to escape.'

THERRY: That don't mean a darn thing. The only thing that the time when it becomes not functional, then you have nothing to worry about.

SHELLY: Because it's affecting your life?

THERRY: Right.


THERRY: It's not surprising that your fantasies, many of them take place in England area.

JOANNY: I think I must've been there-


JOANNY: -because I had a great- but I must have been there in a nice time.

THERRY: You were there in both nice times and bad times.

JOANNY: Both? Well, that makes a lot of sense to me.

SHELLY: So what about fantasizing all the time?

THERRY: No. There's nothing-wrong with-

SHELLY: As soon as I'm not doing something, it leaves my attention-

THERRY: There's nothing wrong with fantasy.

SHELLY: It's like I'm playing a soap opera back in my head.

THERRY: Exactly. That's all it is. You play with better illusions. You play little 'what-if' games. So long as that it remains within the borders where it does not interfere with your everyday natural life and so long as it does not interfere with you achieving a degree of satisfaction in life, then everything's fine.

SHELLY: That doesn't mean I should spend that much time to think about it though-

THERRY: As a matter of fact you can use that fantasy. You can use that fantasy, that fantasizing to a very big advantage. Especially, you being a writer.

JOANNY: I know.

THERRY: You can use it-

JOANNY: Yeah, I wanted to ask one more thing. I'm like the worst with writer's block. I get stuck, I get stuck, this brooding stuck-

THERRY: You know why?

JOANNY: No, I don't.

THERRY: Because you're fighting it rather than letting it come. Use your fantasies. Take advantage of them.

JOANNY: Fighting your fantasies.

THERRY: Use your fantasies. That will destroy the, uh-

JOANNY: But when I write, when it's another kind of writing, like a comic review, or a play-

THERRY: Use your fantasies.

JOANNY: Use them anyway.

THERRY: Sure. Inject your, inject the thing that you're writing into your fantasies and watch the interaction of the people. Use it; use it to your advantage.


THERRY: Because you have a beautiful sense of the comic...It's possible. It's possible that you-

SHELLY: But the only reason I would drink or take drugs is to escape from facing other things.

THERRY: Yes. It's possible. But it's also a release valve for you. If you didn't have that fantasizing release valve, who knows what would happen?

SHELLY: I'd be a total alcoholic, probably.

THERRY: Either that or you'd be in the booby farm. So there's some, there are some good aspects to it, it's simply a case of learning to use it to you best advantage.

SHELLY: Don't worry about it then?

THERRY: No. Never worry. Worrying is always a waste of time.

SHELLY: (can't really understand, may be-I worry about everything)

THERRY: The last thing you need is to bring any more guilt, and that's what worrying does. That just creates guilt. It's the most useless game in the Universe.

SHELLY: So I shouldn't try to curb it then, or-

THERRY: Well, only you have to determine that. Again, I would make the best use of it. But then only you can determine what that's going to be.

SHELLY: If I'm feeling like it's a form of procrastination, that means it probably it?


SHELLY: Oh, alright. Ok.

THERRY: You can lie to everybody, but you can't lie to yourself. Not really. Because there's always a level of you who know.

SHELLY: Do you feel that, that you're fantasizing all the time as a way of avoiding facing things?

JOANNY: I...I think I look at is as more an escape. ....Legion of superheroes, and now it's predominantly England because we were there recently. But it makes me so happy I don't even worry about it other than if I'm avoiding my spiritual lessons but, I was concerned about that-if I was using it as some kind of bullshit, you know. But no, I want to say that it's great to be in them. I enjoy them very much; it's a very nice movie.

THERRY: But the thing is, exactly, that's what I mean-it's a movie.

JOANNY: That what it feels like.

THERRY: That's all it is, it's an escape.

JOANNY: And it is like writing-because it's like I'm producing, I'll come back the next night, and say where was I, what chapter am I on?

THERRY: So the thing to do is use that. Write about it. When you have them, when you experience, write about them and you'll experience right there as you're writing. You would be surprised how much of a prolific writer you could become by doing that. That's what, what's her name-she put out book after book after book.

JOANNY: What century?

SHELLY: Danielle Steele?

THERRY: Nooo. (Laughter)

JOANNY: What century are you talking about?

JOA: Agatha Christie?

THERRY: Yeah, Agatha Christie. That's what she did.

JOANNY: Really.

THERRY: She'd, when she'd write, she'd go into fantasy, she'd be busy there. And she'd be off some place, but her fingers would be going-you'd see smoke. So use it.

JOANNY: Yeah. Now, how does it work with music?

THERRY: Same thing.


THERRY: Same thing-

JOANNY: Because I edit that to a similar degree, but I can't seem to do it-it isn't as hard to do it, like just basically sitting down and it pours out more, whereas writing is so brooding-

THERRY: Yeah but see it doesn't have to be because when you're in your fantasies you can listen to the music-

JOANNY: It goes. Flow.

THERRY: It just goes because who knows where it comes from, it just goes.


THERRY: What you need is-

JOANNY: Is the same thing as in music.

THERRY: Yeah. Let it come and what you need to do is to remember it and write it down. Now that's a pain in the arm.

JOANNY: Yeah. (Laughter)

SHELLY: But she has to take theory.

THERRY: Theory, yeah. Or, she can get a utility for her computer that will do it.

JOANNY: Well, I have my own language. It's just not what the rest of the world-I write my own musical language, but that's unfortunate because nobody else can read it.

THERRY: But it doesn't have to because once you get it down where you can read it, then you can play it for this utility on your computer and it will transpose it to the (real? not sure if this is the word used) world.

JOANNY: Oh great. It will annotate?

THERRY: Yeah, exactly.

JOANNY: Oh, wow, what I need is one of those, boy.

SHELLY: Costs 2 thousand dollars, but...

JOANNY: Two thousand dollars.

THERRY: I don't think it costs that much.

SHELLY: Yeah, well, last I heard it was. It was real expensive because you need all these little things to attach to it. It's not just the programs-like this machine that you need that attaches to something else.

JOANNY: So when think of places where we've lived before it is equivalent of having like in one life having a memory of well when you were ten-

THERRY: Crossover.

JOANNY: No, is it equivalent-

THERRY: Crossover.

JOANNY: A crossover?

THERRY: Yeah. Where the effects of one life intertwines with the threads of the illusions of this life. And you, you-it has a dream-like thought quality that goes along with it.

JOANNY: Can we do that with all our lifetimes-


JOANNY: Or just the ones-

THERRY: No, with all of them.

JOANNY: With all of them.

THERRY: Many of the hunches come that way. Much of psychic phenomena comes that way.

JOANNY: You could assume I suppose that people have had a lot of experiences all over.


JOANNY: Why would you pick one country?

THERRY: It all depends on the most recent or whatever life has the most influence on your reality for the time.


SHELLY: When you mentioned psychic phenomena, a thought occurred to me yesterday. You know like Lotto, could you see what the winning numbers are?

THERRY: You can't see into the future.

SHELLY: You can't?

THERRY: You can but you couldn't bring it here. Not, not really.

SHELLY: Not like music?

THERRY: No. Not really. You could have hunches and you could have pattern readings and stuff like that so you could be pretty accurate at predicting the future, but there are certain things that are just 'no'.

SHELLY: Just no?

THERRY: No. You don't do this.

SHELLY: No. I was telling Sue about this new movie called Clean and Sober about this drug addict, alcoholic and he goes through this rehabilitation convinced the whole time that he doesn't need to be there, that he shouldn't be there and when he first gets there he's using the telephone in the counselor's office and the counselor comes in and tells him to hang up he won't hang up so he pulls the phone out of the wall. And he tells him, 'you know what the addict's least favorite word in the English dictionary is? It's stop.' And he says, 'no.' He says. 'now why don't ask me if you can use my phone?' And he says, 'ok, can I use your phone?' And he goes, 'no' (Laughs) It's a great little scene, the whole thing, it's so true that's me.

THERRY: Right.

SHELLY: I hate it. But why not, that was going to be my next question-why not.

THERRY: Because it's mine.

SHELLY: Right.

THERRY: If you want one, you get one for yourself. Alright, it's the money. Can I have one put in? No.

SHELLY: Right, no.

JOANNY: Glo and I were talking about suddenly we do something and go, 'my God, I'm my mother.' I got that from my mother, exact copy, Xerox it. These things when we catch ourselves action like one of our parents-and it's usually in fact stuff that you hated that they did. Um, see-is the only thing you can do is just try and stop it?

THERRY: Remember the law. You become the things that you hate. You have to bear in mind that the? Law states that you walk towards the things that you fear and become the things that you hate. Well, it's not surprising that you catch yourself doing the very things that you hated from your folks.

JOANNY: This seems to be a common story-

THERRY: With everybody.

JOANNY: - with a lot of women that I know become their mothers and the men their fathers.


JOANNY: The psychology is that we hate what our parents do?

THERRY: Well psychology is-it's not psychology who invented this phenomenon, they simply put a label on it. It's just a natural part of growing. The Laws of Creation are the one who invented the phenomena. Psychology simply recognized it and put a label on it.

JOANNY: So what that you will resent-

THERRY: Well, see the Law of Creation states that you walk towards the things that you fear and you become the things that you hate. That's the Affinity Factor at work to equalize your Karma. That's one of the reasons why battered children when they become parents, batter their children. Cause' the phenomena keeps on going. You become the things that you hate.

JOANNY: You said it balances the Karma?

THERRY: The Affinity Factor is at work.

JOANNY: Well, how does it balance-

THERRY: Well,-

JOANNY: Does it just restructure-

THERRY: The cycles, and you have to deal with the emotions and everything that goes involved in that, and that's the way you get to balance out Karma.

SHELLY: That's the way-what do you mean, that's the way you'll get to stop feeling those things, and you'll stop hating those things when you become them, so that you face them?

THERRY: Right. It's a case of you having first-hand experience.

JOANNY: Oh, yeah.

THERRY: But of course that also demands that you use the brain, not just use your head as a place to hang your hair.

SHELLY: What were we just talking about a few minutes ago? I think you were asking...

JOANNY: Oh, Michelle had said that she knows, she feels happy when her friends care about her because then she knows she's loved.

THERRY: Right.


THERRY: Understand that here, it's not the presence or the absence, it's the coding. Because, obviously there are a lot of people in world who really loves her. But the presence of that love is useless if it's not coded in such a way that she will recognize it.


THERRY: Because if she herself, using her own language and the laws of her universe does not recognize the coding of love, then for all practical purposes it's just not there.

JOANNY: Well, why would it take, does she even have a coding-

THERRY: Yeah, she got it. She has her own special ways that she accepts as the presence of love.

SHELLY: But we were just saying that in some sense, when we were just talking about the big problem of accepting limitations, that I was saying, we were talking about why I like to keep coming back here then, because you're the first one to tell me 'no' and you're full of shit' that's there and she's the same way, she'll bluntly tell him-

THERRY: But see we don't put no limitations on you. Just because we tell you to stop raving truth, we are also very careful to leave you with the message that we don't judge you. What you do you continue to do based on you own Free Will. We do not have the audacity to tell you that you're wrong.

SHELLY: You don't demand-

THERRY: I don't demand anything at all from you. Absolute not. As a matter of fact, I go out of my way, and I'm sure she does too, to have you left with the message, 'hey if you don't like it, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.' Come back when you're human, but do come back. And, therefore, there is no limits placed upon you.

SHELLY: I guess that's the same thing with you too. You just- give me advice or something-

THERRY: It's the feeling that whatever exists between us is unconditional.


THERRY: And that's coding it in the way that you can accept it. We don't play. We don't use love as a weapon. We don't withdraw it just because you may decide to do something that is different from what we would choose to do.

SHELLY: Right. You're not saying if you don't live your life like this then we don't want you.

THERRY: Right. Exactly. Exactly. We say, 'hey, have fun, but come back anyway.' So, if nothing else we can talk about how stupid you were. (Laughter) We can have fun that way, but do come back.

SHELLY: So, it's not really a limitation.

THERRY: It's not a limitation at all. It's an unconditional set of circumstances and therefore you have the inkling that love is there, hence you come back. And all this time I thought you was coming back to see me. (Laughter)

SHELLY: No, I'm saying I come back just because it's logical. It's natural, it makes sense, it seems like a good philosophy of life. It's logical; it's like my intellect is telling me-

THERRY: And the emotions are walking towards it because it's saying, ooo, there's something that I want, and I don't have to steal it. I can take it at my leisure. It's not going to be withdrawn. I don't have to sit and take it all even though I'm not ready for it. Whereas, when you're dealing with other people, a lot of the times you feel that you have to steal the moment, otherwise you lose it. When you find yourself into a situation where you discover there is the coding of love, rather than laying back and enjoying it over time, you have thoughts of 'it ain't going to last-I'd better make the most of it, fast.' So you end up stealing the moment rather than leisurely enjoying it, walking away-it'll be there, it'll be there. See, at the moment you don't believe it'll be there. You believe that it's only temporary, it won't be too long, it won't be there. Cause nothing can be there.

SHELLY: That's true.

THERRY: And that's why you need to work on the Continuum of Expectations.

SHELLY: It's not so much that it's not going to be there, it's that it will change-the real truth will come out eventually. I-

THERRY: The implication that it's not there, that it won't be there.


THERRY: And that's only because you haven't accepted the Claim to Uniqueness. It is possible for somebody to not want to be with you for the moment, and still love you.

SHELLY: When you say I haven't accepted the Claim, do you mean the Claim of other people, or the Claim to myself?

THERRY: Well, see the Claim to Uniqueness is not specific to any individual. It's a Universal Law and it applies to all the species, as well as-

SHELLY: So when I accept it in myself I automatically accept it in other people.


JOANNY: Is this her fears of confronting some of the innate knowledge of how we began, that we were not individuals?


JOANNY: It has nothing to do with that?


JOANNY: Why would someone not want to face-

THERRY: It's a part of excessive selfishness.

JOANNY: The refusal to accept the uniqueness in yourself and not others?

THERRY: No, you can't separate the two.

JOANNY: Oh, you mean-

THERRY: You can't separate the two. You can't accept Uniqueness within yourself and yet refuse Uniqueness unto somebody else.


THERRY: Because it's too blurred. When you are having problems with Uniqueness, then it's Uniqueness period. Consequently, when you're dealing with that aspect of Uniqueness that seems to be within yourself, you have feelings of 'but, you're supposed to' as though there's no difference, no border between you and me. 'Well, see, you're supposed to do this for me.' That's where the demands are coming from. Since there is no distinctive border of Uniqueness between you and the person that you are supposed to be autonomous from, then, if they don't abide by-if they don't satisfy your selfish wants then they've rejected you. In short, because there is no border between you there is no difference between a you or a me, I am you, you're supposed to do what I want because it's me, it's not you. The Claim to Uniqueness says 'no, there's a border there, it is you and it is me, and we're both valid.' It's a trade-off. We don't have to do anything. When you don't accept that, then the coding of love gets mixed.

SHELLY: What did you ask? I forgot what the question was. (Laughter)

THERRY: That the-

JOANNY: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I know that you had said once that the second we claimed this individuality, that's when the pain and the aloneness came.


JOANNY: So I thought that maybe it was connected with that.

THERRY: No, because you also have to remember that since that time, or since that experience many, many veils of forgetfulness have been created.

JOANNY: Too many to make it subliminal in any kind of way?

THERRY: Well, it would have to be so subliminal it would have to be beyond reach of this level.

JOANNY: Oh. Gee, well, I thought that's what underlined-was underlying in a lot of people.

THERRY: Well, what is underlying is the awareness of what they have is not really working well for them, so there has to be another way.

JOANNY: So, you mean what's underlying is not the feeling of-

THERRY: Not from this level.

JOANNY: Really?

THERRY: Not from this level.

JOANNY: Oh, gee, I didn't know that.

THERRY: What's underlying in this level is the awareness is that what it is that they have is not working properly. There has to be something more.

JOANNY: So, the feeling you could come here with what we call the Brotherhood, it's not false though, is it?

THERRY: No, it's not.

SHELLY: Is that the same as the feeling of Oneness, and the Unity, and the-

THERRY: No. See, the Brotherhood is Oneness of the species. The Brotherhood that you're speaking of is the Oneness of the LifeForce.


THERRY: When you can look at a spider and truly emotionally accept and understand that 'there go I' but for the sake of the Pairings, that spider and I are one.

SHELLY: Right.

THERRY: For the same life force that animates me also animates that.

SHELLY: Right.

THERRY: Once you can truly go through that then you can say you have the remembrance of the Unity Factor. In man-man has, I mean doing that would be about the same as asking Sammy to suddenly get up and recite the Gettysburg Address, and the Civil War and what it was all about. It just doesn't happen.

SHELLY: When you say know that, you mean really emotionally-

THERRY: Right.

SHELLY: Because logically, I feel that-

THERRY: Right.

SHELLY: -you know, that's what we are, we are one, we're all-

THERRY: Yeah, but that's all logic.


THERRY: It doesn't-

SHELLY: I don't really-

THERRY: It has no significance to it. It's not held sacred, and that's the basic difference. When you hold something sacred-

SHELLY: I'm scared to death of a spider, when I see a spider, I don't love that spider-no way.

THERRY: Exactly. Because you've accepted the Claim to Uniqueness in that area. That spider and you are just not the same.

SHELLY: Oh, really, so far apart from each other, emotionally.

THERRY: The further the better. (Laughter)

JOANNY: Judy just brought up something I wanted to talk about. When I was about 16, I guess I went through a, you know, it was like I was reading all this Zen Buddhism, stuff like that. And they had certain exercises like looking at a leaf.

THERRY: Yeah. You're talking about the search for Self.

JOANNY: You could see the world in a leaf, the Universe.


JOANNY: You could see wonderful details. I don't even mean details of the leaf, of the thing, but the details are more the mind. So what Judy was just saying isn't the same as far as what you were talking about as far as denial.

THERRY: No, because it's different levels.

JOANNY: So what is that thing?

THERRY: What she's talking about is the Unity of a LifeForce, not the Unity of the MindForce.

JOANNY: Life Force.

THERRY: See, there are different layers. When you look at the intricacies of Creation itself, now you're looking at the LifeForce. When you're looking in terms of life itself, such as the spiders, an ant, a blade of grass, a tree, a human, or some lower life forms, now you're looking at the Unity of the MindForce.

SHELLY: Why is that mind?

THERRY: LifeForce has no Free Will. For instance, the Laws that created this table were such that the table has no choice, it has to do whatever the Law bade it to do.

SHELLY: Right.

THERRY: But, life forms such as a spider or man or whatever, they have a measure of Free Will, and the have an extreme measure of Mobility. They can even change their minds. The table can't. Hence, that's the level of the MindForce. Life as we know it is a product of MindForce. Rocks and the pawns of Life is a product of LifeForce.

RON: It'd be great if you could learn all this-

THERRY: One of the things that I'm in the process of doing is taking all those concepts and putting them all in one book and giving the definition.

SHELLY: And what is that?

THERRY: And it's called the Arkashean Lexicon.

SHELLY: Vegetarianism, and awareness in other living forms--

A question just occurred to me from the last visit we were here, changing the subject. But I was just wondering-someone had asked what, where, why isn't this mentioned in the Bible-

THERRY: Why isn't what mentioned what not mentioned in the Bible?

SHELLY: Arkashean.

THERRY: It is.

SHELLY: And you said it was referred to as the Essenes. And then we started talking about, um, the diet where people weren't supposed to eat their own species, which are mammals. Or let's say any fish and chicken. And a book that I read, The Rush for Peace, said they don't eat anything that was ever alive. Like, even fish.

THERRY: Then they'll be dead.

SHELLY: No, but I mean that have, like, I can't remember the word, alive in the sense of not like a vegetable.

THERRY: They'd be dead. Anything that-if they eat nothing that was alive they wouldn't be alive themselves.

SHELLY: No, I mean alive on a certain level, is what I'm trying to say. Like it has a brain or something like that-

THERRY: In that case, they'd be dead.


THERRY: Because a blade of grass has a brain. So does a tree.

SHELLY: No, it don't.

THERRY: It do too.

SHELLY: They don't think, or they don't-they don't have-

THERRY: Awful lot of presumption. Do you believe that man and the higher mammals of man are the only ones that have the capability of Mobility and Thought?

SHELLY: No, I...

THERRY: They have thoughts.

SHELLY: Vegetables?

THERRY: Of course. Have you ever-they have emotions the same way you do. Have you ever read the, what was his name, umm...Baxter. He did some research to find out if plants were really alive, or whatever it was. And he discovered the Unity of Mind Force. That certain plants have the awareness factors, all plants have the awareness factors, and they have emotions to such a degree that when you walk into a room those plants know you're there.

SHELLY: Well, I know people who talk to plants and stuff like that-

THERRY: Well, we're not talking about that. We're talking about scientifically, acceptable proof that they do have this. Baxter, I believe is his name. He took a mimeograph, lie detector, whatever it's called, and he hooked it up to plants-

SHELLY: Holograph.

THERRY: Holograph. Right. And he was able to record the different changing emotions of that plant. So, hey, just because they're in a different form does not mean they are less than you. So, if they say that they ate nothing that's alive-

SHELLY: No, they said they just ate, you know, fruits and vegetables, stuff like that, but no meat kind of things. No flesh, I guess that's what it was, no anything that used to be a living flesh thing, including fish and chicken.

THERRY: That's not true. Ok. I can accept the book states that. But reality states otherwise.

SHELLY: Oh, really?


JOANNY: So, the real thing is not to eat your own species.

THERRY: Well, it's an abomination to eat your own species.

JOANNY: But it's not so cool to eat chicken, then, either is it?

THERRY: Well, chicken is a reptile.


THERRY: It is not a mammal.

JOANNY: In what-it's-

THERRY: Yeah, the further away you are, the better off you'll be.

JOANNY: The better off you'll be. So, ideally, vegetarianism would be the best, wouldn't it?

THERRY: Except that man the specie, from the beginning was a carnivore. The herbivores were extinct with wars with the carnivores.

JOANNY: Hmm. That's the beginning beginning.

THERRY: From the beginning the species man was carnivore.

JOANNY: That's astonishing me.

THERRY: And he will rise to become herbivore. If he lives that long.


SHELLY: Well, why would they say that, in the book, that you shouldn't eat other flesh?

THERRY: Well, it's obvious that if you have the wisdom to supply all of your needs without the taking of higher life, it's obviously much better for your Karma, and much better for the specie, and a hell of a lot better for the planet. But then people don't always do what they know they should do.

JOANNY: So, why is it-you guys eat chicken right?

THERRY: Yes. We eat chicken, we eat fish, we eat shellfish.

JOANNY: Everything but red meat.

THERRY: We eat no red meat of any kind.

JOANNY: So, if this is true what you say-

SHELLY: Why not give up it all?


THERRY: Because there's no need.

JOANNY: No need.

THERRY: There's no need to give up chicken because it supplies an important nutrient. And for the level of awareness that mankind presently is at, giving up chicken will serve no-there'll be no changes.

SHELLY: It's not blocking anything?

THERRY: It's not blocking anything. It's not blocking their psychic development.

SHELLY: Same with fish?

THERRY: Correct. Same with shellfish. We don't eat any red meat of any kind because that does have an effect on the psychic phenomena. Even though there is one mammal that almost appears to be a freebie, it has no lasting, disastrous effect upon the psychic development, but we don't eat it either.

JOANNY: What is that?

THERRY: The lamb.

SHELLY: The lamb? Why is that different?

THERRY: There's some difference in its system that it doesn't affect the psychological psychic development.

SHELLY: Really?

JOANNY: Is this a chemical thing?

THERRY: Yeah. A lamb and a young goat.

SHELLY: A young goat?

JOA: Why a young goat?

THERRY: Because they're system changes when they get an adult.

SHELLY: Why is it that if they're mammals too, what's different about them?

THERRY: Their make-up is different. The Laws that went into the creation of their specie is just different.

SHELLY: But if-

THERRY: But we don't eat them either.

SHELLY: But if the Law is don't eat your own species, which is a mammal, where does the 'but' part come in?

THERRY: Well, we talking about the actual phenomena of interference. The phenomena of interference is not present in the young goat and the lamb. But in all other red meats that phenomena is present.

SHELLY: But you're not saying it's ok to eat lamb and goat. You're just saying that is doesn't affect the psychic in the same way.

THERRY: That is correct. Cause' if we were saying it's ok to eat it, we would-

SHELLY: You would be eating it.

THERRY: Exactly, and we're not.

SHELLY: Oh, ok.

THERRY: Now if an individual has a, a critical condition where they need an inordinate amount of protein, then the best for them is to eat rabbit.


THERRY: It's the highest protein containing meat there is.

JOANNY: Well, I remember, thinking of Rob, I thought he, at one time the only things he could eat was canned peaches and red meat?

THERRY: Correct.

JOANNY: So in a case like that, he has to eat red meat.

THERRY: Yes, he has no choice.

JOANNY: He has no choice.

THERRY: He has no choice. His Karma demands that he eat it. That's a pretty limited life. Red meat and canned peaches.

JOANNY: It certainly is.

SHELLY: It's ridiculous.

THERRY: Well, I don't know about it being ridiculous, but-

SHELLY: Oh, there I go again, right? (Laughter) Oh, boy, that's going to be a hard habit to break. Oh, gosh. I do that all the time. That's the way my mind works, now, snap-

THERRY: Because it's habit. Let's face it; you've been doing it for a number of years.

JOANNY: I was thinking about every time I see my mother I see myself. Well, not half as bad as that, but I'll say stupid things-'DON'T PUT THAT ON THE TOASTER!'-you know the really stupid things, the little household things. And I say oh that's my mother except she was much worse. And obviously, I tried to lessen that. I see it, I see my self do it, then I'll kick myself. But, now, I've been thinking, the good part about is the absolute frustration that comes from all the things I've been doing wrong with Sam. So, I think,

THERRY: I think you just made an error.

JOANNY: Oh, I did?

THERRY: Yeah. All the things you've done wrong. Just because it's different doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.

JOANNY: Oh, ok. There I go again, guilt.

THERRY: Yeah. (Laughter) Yeah. And even without the stepladder, too.

JOANNY: So I think that will lessen too, because I don't get so frustrated. By just doing things right with Sammy you told me the rules and limitations.

THERRY: Right.

JOANNY: Ok. So one will work on the other.

SHELLY: I think I'm going to surprise myself about how much I do it. I probably do it even more than I think.

THERRY: You have to remember that there is a very set Law governing change.


THERRY: Well, the basics is that you will begin by doing something and have no awareness that you are in fact doing it. Then you'll grow, and you'll become aware that you do it, but you'll still do it.

SHELLY: Right.

THERRY: And then you'll continue growing and the time factor between the commission of the deed and the awareness of the deed will keep shortening, but you still keep doing it. And then finally, there'll come a time when you'll be doing it and you'll be aware that you're doing it as you're doing it. But you still keep doing. Then as you grow a little more, you'll be aware that you're going to do it, just before you still do it, but you still do it. Then you'll grow a little more, and the time span between you being aware that you're going to do it and the deed will begin to grow, but you'll still keep doing it. Until finally, there'll be- the time span will be big enough to give you time to think and debate with yourself, and give you an opportunity to not do it. So, until that time, hey, have fun, you're going to keep doing it.

SHELLY: So, it ain't gonna' happen overnight without practice.

THERRY: Exactly.

SHELLY: Yeah, that's definitely the phase I'm in now. After I do it, I'm like 'aww', I just did it.

THERRY: Right.

SHELLY: I never see it coming; it just flies out of my mouth.

THERRY: Right. So that law that I gave you, it doesn't matter what the deed is. That Law will apply. And the books, one of the books that we have, I gave a chart on before, during, and after target behavior. And I graphed out when change can exist. I believe it's in the Arkashean Lexicon. It might be in some of the other books, too.

JACKIE: I think the Illusion might have it.

THERRY: It's possible. The Classroom section, and the Bewilderment might have it.

JACKIE: So, once that separation grows to a point where you have more time to evaluate your values-

THERRY: Well, it's more than just evaluate it, it's actually getting into a debate with the different parts of yourself. Giving yourself time to decide if it is ok or if it's not for you. It'll pass through your psychological screens and you'll start making up all kinds of excuses,-

SHELLY: To do it. (Laughs)

THERRY: Yes. To continue to do it where finally the time will come you'll have enough time that your higher self will take precedence and you'll just say 'go play in the traffic..'

JACKIE: At that time it goes into your automatic pilot, right?

THERRY: Oh no. Oh no. You don't change automatic pilot that easy. You'll have to do it the new way for a considerable length of time until finally you'll think and you'll say to yourself, 'I don't believe I used to do that.' You know, it's so ingrained that it's 'No', that's when it goes into automatic pilot. Change is very difficult, as most people will attest.

SHELLY: But, still I feel as if I need something to do, before I came down here I just didn't know what to do. I needed someone to take my foot and put it there, and put it there-

THERRY: For someone who hates limits that's pretty good.

SHELLY: I know. I felt like I needed something specific. Not just anything can do that; I needed a real specific thing to work on. This'll be great.

THERRY: But, you needed to be able to know about it, but choose it for yourself. Rather than someone else demanding it of you.

SHELLY: Right. You know as soon as you said it, I recognized it-that's me. That's exactly what I do.

THERRY: That's probably why I said it.

SHELLY: I like the, I like the joke you told too, about the guy- that is so much me.

THERRY: Why don't you recall it for the sake of the tape and the others that are present?

SHELLY: There's a man and he's standing in the street under a street light, down on the ground on his hands and knees, searching around, just feeling around. And another man comes along and says, 'did you lose something?' And he says, 'yes I did.' And he says, 'well do you want me to help you look?' And he says, 'oh, yes that would be very nice.' So the man gets down and they're both down there, and they're looking and they're looking. And the second man says, 'by the way what are we looking for-what did you lose?' And he says, 'well, I lost my car keys.' And then they have a big discussion about how awful it is to go without your car keys, and lose them, and the second man says, 'exactly where did you lose your car keys?' And the first man says, 'well, I lost them over there, near that corner, in the alley over there.' And the second man says 'why are you looking over here?' And he says, 'well, because there's more light.' (Laughter)

JOA: That makes sense.

THERRY: Well it makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. You will do what it is that you want to do regardless of the illogic that's involved. That's the trap of pain.

SHELLY: But it's more comfortable here. I don't want to go in the dark and find, really find, I just want to pretend I'm looking and be comfortable.

THERRY: Right. A lot of times you can get a person to understand more about themselves by using anecdotes.

SHELLY: I told you that's how I felt coming down here when I said that I'm just wasting my time. Because I felt like that's just what I'm doing, I'm just searching for my keys in the light and I know it isn't there.

THERRY: Yeah, but hey, going into an alley and looking is dangerous-it hurts too much. You might meet yourself. Nobody wants to do that.

SHELLY: Right. I know a good little joke you might like.

THERRY: Oh, ok.

SHELLY: There's this lion walking through the jungle, he's growling at everybody. He goes up to the monkey, he's growling -Grrrr-who's the king of the jungle? The monkey says, 'oh, you are the king, you are the king of the jungle, oh mighty lion.' So the lion says 'ok' and walks on. He goes up to giraffe and goes Grrrr-who's the king of the jungle? And the giraffe says, 'oh your highness, your majesty, you are the great king of the jungle. The lion says 'ok' and walks on. He goes up to an elephant and he goes Grrrr-who is the king of the jungle? And the elephant reaches down, takes his trunk and wraps it around the lion, and bangs up and down on the ground, twirls him over his head, throws him off into a tree, and he crashes into the ground. The lion gets up and says, 'well, god, you didn't have to get mad just because you didn't know. (Laughter)

THERRY: That's very good. I like that.

SHELLY: Talk about refusing to see the truth.

THERRY: Yeah. That's just as apropos.

SHELLY: Yeah, I know I love that joke.

JACKIE: But at one time I thought what prevented Nikon from doing what they needed to do was the fact they generally feel guilty, there's a sense of guilt.

THERRY: Yeah. And therefore they run away from themselves.

JACKIE: Where's the guilt coming from?

THERRY: It's the special cross that they build for themselves.