Arkashean Q&A Session -- 052

ROGER: Regarding the teachings you give to people, what is, in terms of going to other realities, I mean, where's the limit or the limits between what you teach to people who are monks here, and people who live around?

THERRY: Oh, there are big differences. The people who are peripheral, they get taught only what they need to know to make their lives more comfortable, to make their lives more fulfilled. They get taught what they need to make them more independent, more successful at whatever it is that they want to do; they get taught what they need to know so that their problems in life can be more under their own control. People, on the other hand, who live here, don't have to deal with the trials and tribulations of the outside world, so they get taught totally different things. They get taught how to handle psychic abilities, and the other areas of traveling to other dimensions and stuff. So, it's totally different.

ROGER: Um-hum. So, this means living around the monastery--

THERRY: Yea, peripheral.

ROGER: Okay, you cannot expect to have such teachings as going to other--

THERRY: No, we don't teach you those things. Those things you don't play around with; that stuff is too dangerous to play around with. You don't play with people's realities; it's just not right. People, first of all, are seldom stable enough to handle reality subchecks, so you just don't do that. And, besides, life has a way of deciding what peripherals need to learn anyway.

ROGER: Which means?

THERRY: We don't deal with reality from the point of view of Astration and projection; we deal with reality from the point of view of whatever it is that concerns you in your life for now. A perfect example of that is when you and your other half are learning that there's a hard-core adjustment when you get to a new relationship. Stuff like that.

SHIRLEY: You're saying you don't play around with it because it's not stuff we need for our lives --that's just considered playing if you're trying to learn about it?

THERRY: Yea, if it's superfluous information in that it won't help you at all in the things that you chose to do in life, then we don't encourage people to get into those areas.

SHIRLEY: Just for the sake of curiosity?

THERRY: Yea. There's no need for you to try to learn about something that's only going to make things worse for you. You need to learn things that are going to make your reality more stable. You don't need to learn things that can end up making your reality less stable.

SHIRLEY: So being curious about something doesn't necessarily mean that because you're ready to try to learn?

THERRY: Well, it only means that you're ready to begin understanding a concept, but being curious in and of itself doesn't mean you're ready to deal with that concept. There's a big difference between talking about something, and starting to get involved with it. There's a big difference.

ROGER: For example, when you took John to the alter room, you just gave him the opportunity to peek at what can be, what is something else, I mean--

THERRY: Yea, you're having reference to when we took him to a different world.

ROGER: Yea, so, what you don't do is to teach the people how to go there themselves to that place, right?

THERRY: Correct. Not only that, but the only thing we did when we took him to another world, we showed him something that will help deal with his future on this planet. We showed him certain attitudes, certain emotions, certain feelings, and certain connections, and those things can only be seen and felt on other worlds, or other levels of reality. That's why we did it. But he couldn't go on his own. We made sure that he wouldn't be able to. And besides, under normal circumstances, he goes quite often anyway; he just is not aware of it. He does it in his dreams. In his sleep states. All we did is put a cap on what he can do so as it won't destabilize his reality.

ROGER: How can he take ... the seeing, or understanding, or just experience kind of feeling that you can have on this level, how, does it open transposition?

THERRY: Well, let's see if I can answer that question by having somebody else talk, okay? Sue, since we've taken John, do you notice subtle differences in him?

JULIA: Yea I do. But I also notice a little bit of trepidation, unsureness. Whether I've imagined that, I don't know, but that's what I've noticed.

SHIRLEY: What kind of differences?

JULIA: The trepidation is the one I've felt the strongest.

THERRY: You mean, when you say trepidation, you mean he's less willing to cause harm.

JULIA: Oh no, I didn't mean --I meant more like an unsureness about what was seen maybe, or what he feels. Yes, you could say, so therefore an unwillingness to cause harm because he's not quite sure of where's he's going to go with this.

THERRY: Whereas before he'd do something, and then worry about the harm later.


THERRY: Does that answer your question? That's how you take advantage of it. You become aware of things that you were never aware of before. What we did is we showed him that a level if certainty can be too much; you can create harm without ever realizing it. So we showed him that, and now, he thinks more before he does things. And after a while he will readjust his state of willingness and then he'll be a different person again. See, the things that you learn is that you learn to become willing to examine yourself, your goals, and your purposes, and your place in the unity of the whole. You're less willing to secure your place by harming somebody else's place. That's how you take advantage of these things.

ROGER: I'm going to change the subject; it's related to that but in the same way you can harm people by being too certain of things, can you harm people by being undecided and--

THERRY: No. You don't harm them by being indecisive; you harm them, you harm people when their indecision makes you inpatient.

ROGER: So the only risk that you have is you're too much indecisive is to harm self because you can provoke their impatience.

THERRY: That's one of the avenues. Obviously you don't want to be so indecisive that you no longer have the ability to make decisions; that would be stupid.

ROGER: Could you say that again?

THERRY: You do not want to become so indecisive that you no longer have the ability to make decisions; you don't want to do that. You just want to become more thoughtful, more considerate. And that's what we've done with John. We've introduced him to the concepts that if he's a little less certain, less forceful, he'll become more considerate, and therefore will think more before he does something, and this process of thinking first often is mistaken for indecisiveness. `Cause he's not indecisive; he's simply now considering if this is what he really wants to do. He's thinking more before committing himself to certain tradeoffs. Whereas before he would be emotionally caught and he would just plunge in, and worry about the harm later.

SHIRLEY: This lesson was taught by just making aware that there are things that he doesn't know going on?

THERRY: I can't answer that to you. I can't tell you how it was done; it's too harmful--there's certain information that I just don't speak of. The only thing that I can say is that you, it could be correct to say that he was taken to a different reality. It could be correct to say that he had bilocation, and trilocation such that the physical being in this world was still active and conscious, but the mental processes were not in this world; they were in another world.

SHIRLEY: No, I didn't mean that. I didn't mean literally what happened to him. I meant his new awareness of being careful about his actions, was that because of he was aware that there are other things that he wasn't aware of before?

THERRY: Yes, he's now aware that there's more things in life--well, it goes back to the phrase in the book, there's more things--how is it? Horatio Hornblower or whatever it is?

JULIA: Um, there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio than is dreamt of in your philosophy.

ROGER: Sue, what is it?

THERRY: There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. And we showed him that. `Cause before, he had a very specific image of what reality was, and what was capable, and what was bullshit and what wasn't. Well, we sort of put a dent in that. Now he knows that there is far more to reality than what he thought there was.

JULIA: Does he know consciously in this day to day life or--

THERRY: He knows.

JULIA: He knows consciously, like if I were to even ask--

THERRY: He knows. Maybe he can't sit and make a list for you of what's here in reality, but that doesn't change the fact that he knows.

JULIA: The thing that we often discuss, I think he might have asked this the other night, is what good is all these lessons on other levels when I wake up in the morning and I'm still the same shmuck, `cause to him he doesn't feel like there's been any change.

THERRY: Well, that's not surprising because nobody ever feels change; they just wake up one morning and discover that they're different; what they used to like they don't like anymore; what they used to love now makes them uncomfortable.

SHIRLEY: Oh, that's what I read today when I was reading about the different change things, and it was that, that while you're learning you can't be aware of it; if you're aware of it then you're not learning.

THERRY: Exactly. The learning process cannot continue if you are aware of it because you get lost in the laws. You read that in one of our books.

SHIRLEY: Yea. That was in The Discovery.

THERRY: Well, learning, and true change exists only when you're not aware that this is what is happening. If you become aware of the learning process, then learning stops and it becomes an academic discussion and learning don't take place anymore.

SHIRLEY: When you catch yourself, when you're trying to change a habit and you catch yourself before you do it, that's not the kind of awareness you're talking about?

THERRY: Yes it is.

SHIRLEY: But you're aware of it, I mean--

THERRY: No, no, no, no, like say when you're trying to change an old habit, let's say that you catch yourself doing a behavior, and you say, oops, wait a minute, I'm not supposed to be doing this. That's okay, `cause that's not going to stop learning; that's going to reinforce a new habit being formed. It's habit formation. But, if you start thinking in terms of, well, psychology says I should do this, and I should do that, and then perhaps if this law is that, then that law is this, learning will stop.

SHIRLEY: Is that because you're analyzing it too much?


ROGER: What does it mean? Why can't you learn something--why would you stop learning something because you are aware of it, I mean--

THERRY: Because you get lost in due process.

ROGER: In due process? I don't understand.

THERRY: The same way as a, try an experiment with me. Get up, go ahead, get up, walk to that rug and then walk back. Now walk back. Okay, now, this time you'll do the same thing except I want you to think about mentally move your muscles and your bones. Are you thinking --did you do it such that it wasn't an automatic walking; it was you mentally moved each muscle in order to walk? Or was it still just automatic?

ROGER: No, it was not still automatic, but still I was doing it.

THERRY: Yea, you were doing it, but did you find that there was a tremendous difference between the two? If your mind is so locked up into thinking step by step of what it is that you're doing, you don't have time to think about the value of what it is you are doing, and the effects of what you're doing. You get lost in due process.

ROGER: So does this mean that all learning must be done unconsciously?

THERRY: It always is.

ROGER: And therefore --when I say unconsciously, I don't even know what I'm talking about. It is something that happens--an evolution on an emotional--

THERRY: Yes, there's only one time that you're very close to totally conscious when you're learning something, and that's when you're serving your interests. Well, if you're interested in something, you'll serve that interest and in the process you'll learn.

SHIRLEY: math in tonight?

THERRY: Yes, exactly. See, you weren't interested in learning that; you were interested in serving your interests, your purpose, your proof, and because you were so locked up in your interest, you learned something. But so long as you were more locked up in your own point, there's no way you were allowing yourself to understand; you were locked in due process.

SHIRLEY: I finally got it; Tim approached it from a point of view that I already accepted, and then kind of worked backwards from there.

THERRY: Yea. Tim was using the Arkashean way of teaching.

SHIRLEY: It works?

THERRY: Yes, it always works.

SHIRLEY: Instead of saying, you just have to accept this, he took a premise that I already accepted, and then --

THERRY: Worked backwards.

SHIRLEY: --showed how this fits into that.

THERRY: Right.

ROGER: What is this basic idea of Arkashean teaching? Way of teaching?

THERRY: You have to teach on the level the person is at, as opposed to trying to change the level so you can teach him.

ROGER: That's what we were talking about. Don't you have such a word like... you know, science of learning? Of teaching?

THERRY: No we don't. There is such a word, but we don't use it.

SHIRLEY: It's probably in the dictionary.

THERRY: Yea, we don't use it.

ROGER: For me a good teacher is somebody who first knows what he's got to teach, but also be able to understand what is that you don't understand, and then find the path--that's what you do.

THERRY: That's what I do, yes. But I cheat.


THERRY: I go into people's heads. That's how I find out what it is they don't understand.

ROGER: Well, even without being able to go into people's heads, sometimes, listening to their answers, and what they're pointing, can do it.

THERRY: Yes. But that's more intuitive than anything else.


THERRY: So that's going into somebody's head using the back door.

ROGER: Is that what Tim did?

THERRY: Yes. See, Tim has a lot of the same abilities that I have. He can do a lot of the same things that I can do. Let's face it, he's been learning now for twenty years.

SHIRLEY: For twenty years? Wow.

THERRY: So he can do a lot of the things that I can do; it's just that he's also learned to keep quiet about it.

ROGER: That's pretty good.

THERRY: He still has a lot to learn, but nonetheless, he's learned an awful lot. He's very good.

SHIRLEY: Can I ask a morbid sounding question, talking about Tim? Are teachers--`cause you, when you were very young, the knowledge that you had, you had it from the beginning, but Tim is like, being trained. What happens when you're not here anymore, physically? Will the teacher be someone else who's had it from the beginning, or will it be someone who's been trained? Will there always be someone--

THERRY: Just because my physical won't be here, doesn't mean I won't be here.

SHIRLEY: Well, what about the things that Tim may or may not know that he's still learning?

THERRY: He'll meet me on certain levels.

SHIRLEY: So the teacher, quote, unquote, doesn't always have to be someone who was born that way?

THERRY: Correct. Besides, the abilities that I have are being divided between three people. Between Tim, Skie, and Wayne. Each of them is being given a very specific part of what it is that I possess. To use very corny television phrases, the power is being passed on.

SHIRLEY: This seems risky though, I mean, what if the training isn't enough to a level yet--

THERRY: If the Universe is big enough to create all that is, I think it's smart enough to know how much power to give whom for what purpose.

SHIRLEY: There's always a teacher all the time somewhere?

THERRY: On some level.

SHIRLEY: On some level? There's not always a physical teacher?

THERRY: No. Sometimes the physical is too dark to have a level; the lights go out. And they have to wait until the MindForce of the level is--well, they have to wait until the evil is not as present. `Cause evil will always kill itself off.

SHIRLEY: Sort of the thing like --

THERRY: That's what the Ark of Fire is all about. It's to survive against the evil of the planet.

ROGER: When your body will die, do you have to be reincarnated as somebody, or can you just stay on, I mean, no incarnation?

THERRY: Well, I'll be able to stay on levels--I won't necessarily have to return to this level right away.

ROGER: But if it does, that means --

THERRY: I still have a job to do.

ROGER: Well, yes, does it mean also that the body that you're born into, well, I mean, obviously it will be born like this, like--

THERRY: Not necessarily true. Like, I didn't enter this body until I was three years old.

ROGER: Who was there before?

THERRY: That's beside the point.

ROGER: Is it besides the point to ask you if there was some trade?

THERRY: Trade? What do you mean by trade?

ROGER: Switch.

THERRY: Um, you mean in the form of a changeling?

ROGER: Changeling?

THERRY: I don't understand what you mean by trade?

ROGER: You had an accident when you were three, right?

THERRY: Yes, hit by a Greyhound bus.

ROGER: What I'm asking is does the mind that was there between zero and three be the same as the one that is here now?

THERRY: Um, if I limit my answer just to that, I'll have to say yes. But that would be inaccurate, `cause there's a whole lot more than just that.

ROGER: I guess so, in terms of individual mind, you have individual--

THERRY: Yea, all of the mind energy that was there still was there. But there was a whole lot more.

ROGER: That's why we come here.

SHIRLEY: Is that usual to enter after birth instead of right at the beginning?

THERRY: It all depends on the purpose being served. Sometimes you don't take total possession of a form until that form reaches a certain age. All depends on what it is that is occurring and why.

ROGER: Does this type of thing always happen at the opportunity of an accident? I mean--


ROGER: Does it have to be something like going close to death?


SHIRLEY: You can just wake up one day and--

THERRY: You can sneeze and have a curtain open.

SHIRLEY: Really?

THERRY: Or you can sit there and have a feeling that the time is approaching, time is approaching, and as time goes by, the time is getting closer and closer, okay, it's time. (Sighs) Boom, you got it.

ROGER: What's `it'?

THERRY: Self-actualization of the highest order.

ROGER: Self?

THERRY: Actualization. It's like a light bulb goes on in your head, and suddenly you know far more than you ever thought.

ROGER: So in terms of personal individual awakenings, how do you explain this? Is this the same mind that suddenly--

THERRY: Well, let's see if I can explain it another way. When I see members of the human race. I see people walking in their sleep, eating in their sleep, dreaming in their sleep, fighting and dying in their sleep. And every once in a while, I see somebody that shows signs of waking up. Every once in a while, very rarely, somebody actually wakes up. Tim, for instance, is a person who is in the process of waking up. He's not totally awake yet, but he's waking up. So are some of the other people that are here. Did that answer your question?


THERRY: The sleeper must awaken. That is the destiny of man, to walk the road to the Grand Awakening.

ROGER: Does Free will have something to do with the fact that you wake up or not?


JULIA: Meaning its choice, personal choice?

SHIRLEY: Are people who can apparently remember a past life, are they more awake than most normal people?

THERRY: Providing that is a true remembrance, and not a figment of a dream.

SHIRLEY: So learning to study things like that be you waking up?

THERRY: Well, first of all, in order for an individual to come to know inside them that there's something more than their present state, you have to be able to be in the process of waking up a little bit to even have that awareness. But just because you're beginning to stir in your sleep; I call it stirring in your grave, that doesn't mean you're going to awaken.

SHIRLEY: You could be just turning over.


JULIA: Are there ways to work on fear that--you know, we're not ready to go to this classroom--are there things that we can do to work on those fears?


JULIA: What are those?

THERRY: Different levels take care of many things.

JULIA: So, that's one of those things that just happen?

THERRY: Yea, it's an ongoing situation. Again, volition has a lot to do with it.

SHIRLEY: Volition?

JULIA: Free will?

SHIRLEY: What's volition?

THERRY: A lot of people love their pain; they need it terribly.

ROGER: Volition is will?

THERRY: Freewill. The ability to choose; that's volition.

SHIRLEY: Oh, right. He did it by his own volition.

THERRY: Many people love their pain. That pain's expression is their way of showing the world how great they are. Because obviously with great pain comes great beauty. Does that sound familiar to you?

SHIRLEY: Great beauty? Where's the beauty part come in?

THERRY: Well, it's the high drama.

ROGER: I don't even know what you're talking about, but it's beautiful. Ninety percent of the movies that you can see all the time are based on that.


JULIA: Boy, you can take a look at Mozart, you're talking about any great artist--

THERRY: Any real great individual. Most of the world believes that you've got to have great pain if you're going to have creativity, or greatness, and obviously that's a big sham, but the world believes it; the world lives it.

SHIRLEY: The trend seems to be changing, at least with musicians now. A lot of them are being straight, no drugs, no smoking, and health foods--

THERRY: Sometimes.

SHIRLEY: Yea, but they're getting away from that `you have to take drugs to be miserable' and...

JULIA: Everybody that I'm close to that I talk to, they always have nightmarish dreams, fear dreams.


JULIA: I consider myself to be completely immersed in fears, and I don't have fearful dreams; usually my dreams are quite nice. So, I'm wondering, is this an inability to face them at all, so I won't even dare to dream these kinds of dreams?


JULIA: I mean, is that one of the places you can work out your fear stuff? By having these fearful dreams?

THERRY: Yes. But volition has a lot to do with it.

JULIA: Wanting to get rid of it.


JULIA: So I'm still sitting in them then; have fun.

THERRY: Look at it like a circus; people love to go on scary rides.

ROGER: By the way, what did you call the midway the other day? Something, the monastery a freak show?

THERRY: The circus of horrors.

ROGER: You call it the midway?

THERRY: Midway.

ROGER: `Cause we were talking about that. M I D way?

THERRY: Midway, yea.

JULIA: That fun is drama; it's not like some kind of sado-masochism, is it? I mean--

THERRY: Six of one; half dozen of the other.


SAM: What did you say a house in one's dreams always symbolizes, it always means something?

THERRY: The individual's person. The individual himself.

SAM: A house? It could be an apartment, right?

THERRY: Still a house; the residence could be a cave; still a house.

SAM: Right.

JULIA: Oh yea, we were talking about the different psychological, like there's a viewpoint that everything and everybody in the dream is you--

THERRY: Yes, different parts of you. Getting bitten?

SHIRLEY: Even when they're people that you know, like your parents or your friends?

THERRY: That's one of the philosophies, yea.

SHIRLEY: Oh. Is that a real truism?

THERRY: For some people. Remember, you're talking about a language. Like all languages, you can use it in many different ways. Every symbol has nine levels to it. That's just one of them. There are many dreams that exist in a symbol. You have listened to one of them.

BLAKE: Which dream were we just listening to?

THERRY: Right.

SHIRLEY: When writing down my dreams, is just writing them down enough, or should I try and analyze them and stuff, and try to figure out what they might mean and--

THERRY: Just writing them down is a good beginning.

SHIRLEY: Because I have no idea what they mean.

THERRY: Give it time.

JULIA: I mean, is that to say, if you want to--are you supposed to be sacrificial completely, is that normal--I'm using the wrong words here--is that healthy?

THERRY: You can play all kinds of games; you have that choice. The obvious, if you want to use the words `what is the better choice', you have to find a happy balance between the needs of the mother, the needs of the father, the needs of the child as those needs come in contact with the needs of the family and the family's role in society. So you really can't make a blanket statement `well, the mother should sacrifice this while the father sacrifices that'. You can't make those things. `Cause each of them are going to have certain needs at certain times, and by definition, needs must be satisfied.

ROGER: When people want kids in most of the cases, is it like education?


ROGER: Did you say something last time like most of the time when people want kids, it's something they're being taught that they must have kids.

THERRY: Yea, I would say that's fairly true. But I would say it's far more the case that children are usually accidents of passion. I'd say there are not all that many people who really sit down and decide, well, let's have a child, and prepare for it. There are some, but as a whole, I'd say the majority of the people born are incidents of passion. People just live their lives and do whatever comes naturally, and I'd say the majority of the people are surprised when they find out they're pregnant. It's almost they didn't realize that's how you got children.

JULIA: That doesn't speak very well for passion. I know that I certainly have this problem now.

THERRY: Don't belittle passion; it has its place. It's not--

JULIA: Sex! I'm talking about sex!

THERRY: It's not passion that's at fault; it's carelessness.

JULIA: Everybody that I know who got pregnant, including myself, was using, got pregnant on birth control. There is no birth control that is one hundred percent, right?

THERRY: Yes there is.

JULIA: Yea, abstinence.

THERRY: Orange juice.

JULIA: Yea, right. But that's what I'm saying, I know for me this whole thing has--

BLAKE: Drinking orange juice?

THERRY: Yea, instead of having sex.

JULIA: But that's one of the problems, I think, it's given me. It's given me a very negative attitude towards sex, which is certainly not a healthy thing to have in a relationship; it makes it, you know--

THERRY: Yea, it puts a damper on it when the love of your life comes to you with a rip-roaring one, and you say, "not tonight; I got a headache."

JULIA: That's right.

THERRY: It sort of puts a damper on things.

JULIA: The whole thing opens a can of worms, I mean, the conditioning, we were talking about--I mean, nobody's trained to be a parent, you know.

THERRY: I think that's what I just said. The majority of the children are accidents of passion.

ROGER: It seems to me like all of the people that I know having babies, have decided it. Well, at least one in the couple decided it.

THERRY: Well, there's a far cry between the first statement and the second statement. Between all of the people that I know, and then at least one that I know. There's a difference.

ROGER: No, no, no. At least one in the couple decided consciously to have a kid.

THERRY: Um, as a majority, I don't think that's true. I'm not denying that that happens fairly often, but, as a whole, considering all the children that are born, I don't think that's true. I think the number one is that they're accidents of passion. If in the instances where one decided, it's usually the case of they're setting a trap of some kind.

JULIA: When you say one decided, you mean without--

THERRY: He mentioned that there are many circumstances where one of the two parents decided to have the child, not an accident.

JULIA: Without telling the other one?


JULIA: Is that what you meant?

ROGER: That's not what I meant. I meant that, for me, the majority of the people that I know, I mean, it was not an accident for both of them; at least one, usually the mother decided to have the kid--

SHIRLEY: She told the father?

ROGER: Yes, yes, she told the father but the mother had decided before, usually for one, or ten years, the wife has, you know, been pulling or pushing the guy to have the baby, `cause usually the husband, I don't know, but it seems like usually men are more reluctant to have kids than women.

THERRY: I'll accept that that happens a lot, but I won't say that that's the majority of births. I'd say that's fairly seldom considering. I'd say better than sixty percent of the births are unannounced, uncalled for, and unwanted.

ROGER: Could this be, in another way, better, more--

THERRY: I don't make those types of judgments.

ROGER: That's why I'm looking for another word than better.

THERRY: It certainly indicates that man's roots are still somewhat animalistic.

ROGER: Sorry?

THERRY: It certainly indicates that man's roots are still somewhat animalistic.

ROGER: What could be a view of birth in the Arkashean point of view? Birth in terms of the mother?

THERRY: Well, first of all, in the Arkashean way of life, before two people get married, they have to go to a special school for seven years. So I'd say they have about seven years worth of planning. There is a difference.

ROGER: This doesn't answer my question. Would there be less demography?

THERRY: Give me a definition to demography.

ROGER: The rate between populations according to generations. Population spread out, increase the number of human beings...

THERRY: I never thought about it.

ROGER: Would there be less people if everybody were Arkashean?

THERRY: Yes. Yea, fewer accidents, but those that would be here would end up having a better quality of life. If you consider in the Arkashean way, all mothers take care of all children; makes it a whole lot easier.

JULIA: Communal rising of children?


JULIA: One of the feelings that John has expressed to me more than once, and I don't think I answered it very effectively, is that he doesn't understand, and he feels it's unfair that how come there are no other children in Arkashea? He gets a real unfairness feeling about it. I don't, I mean, aside from saying, it's Karma, we have lessons to learn, and I don't really seem to give him an answer that is effective, you know.

THERRY: Perhaps it is because the individuals who are involved with Arkashea have no desire to have children, as of yet.

JULIA: Well, if I had a desire, I was sleeping on it. I mean, I just have some kind of subconscious desire? Was it because I wanted to face my lessons or something? I can't imagine that I --

THERRY: Well, you ask me to answer something that is not really answerable with absolute truths.

JULIA: Oh, well, I don't really understand that.

THERRY: Which crystal ball would you like me to look into to find out why you did something?

JULIA: So you can't answer it.

THERRY: Exactly. It's a question that, without being blatant about the abilities that are here, there's no way of answering that with absolute truth; you have to revert to clich├ęs such as well, you had to deal with the abandonment issue.

JULIA: Yea, I know, you've said that before. Obviously John has to deal with it in a different kind of way.


JULIA: So you have a child, so you won't abandon it. See, I just don't--

THERRY: Well, if you're asking me to graph the fabric, and try to point out the different threads, all I can do is point out possibilities; I can't go into the Alliance of the Rule and tell you what it is you have to do. That's forbidden.

JULIA: Well then, really, what I'm interested in, is I am telling myself this super lie and all my life, then, it is a super lie I'm telling myself?

THERRY: I don't know? What is it that you're telling yourself?

JULIA: Well, I always told myself that I never wanted kids. And that hasn't changed; I have a kid, and my sense of obligation is very strong--

THERRY: You always told yourself that you wanted kids?

JULIA: Didn't want kids.

THERRY: Oh okay, well, there seems to be an inconsistency there.

JULIA: What is that?

THERRY: I can't totally relate to the concept `I don't want kids', and yet give a behavior that you're going to fuck like a mink. I can't reconcile those two behaviors. So, obviously the human passion needs some types of controls, and equally as obvious, if you are going to exercise your right to satisfy your carnal nature, it seems to me that obviously you're going to have a child.

JULIA: But everybody fucks like rabbits; they're not having kids! Everybody I know!

THERRY: Are you kidding? The abortion rate is so--

JULIA: The people I know.

THERRY: The abortion rate in this country is so high that it's unreal.

JULIA: Oh, okay.

THERRY: So I just have problems accepting on the one hand somebody saying, `I don't want kids', and on the other hand, not having a foolproof way of not having them.

JULIA: That was then could only be looked at as stupidity, `cause I thought birth control would work.

THERRY: No, there's another way of looking at it.


THERRY: In order to learn how to type, you have to have a typewriter to bang on. If it is your Karma to deal with the abandon issue, the only way you can deal with the abandon issue is to have children. So obviously your birth control didn't work because there was a higher force involved.

JULIA: That's what I was trying to say before.

THERRY: But that doesn't change the fact that there's an inconsistency between your statements of `I don't want children, I never wanted children', and yet the amount of care that you took to not have them. You know, there's an inconsistency.

JULIA: You mean, if the desire to not have them were so strong, I would have done something like have my tubes tied.

THERRY: Um-hum. Now you're getting the--

JULIA: Or I would have had an abortion. I would have done one of those two things. Is that right?

THERRY: Well, that's not necessarily true, because now you come in contest with other things. Obviously the forces of creation wanted you to have a child so that you could deal with the issues at hand; otherwise the pill, or whatever you were using, would have worked, as it does in many other cases. But that's a different story; we're not talking about that. We're talking about the inconsistency between you claiming you didn't want children, and yet, obviously you didn't want children badly enough to do whatever was necessary to be certain that you didn't have them.

JULIA: I, you know, I really believed that if I used birth control consistently, and no slip-ups ever, like most people I know, they say, well, I'll forget it for tonight--

THERRY: You want me to punch a hole in that, or you want me to accept it blindly?

JULIA: No, I'm just saying that --

THERRY: You want me to punch a hole in that or do you want me to accept it blindly?

JULIA: Well, that doesn't do me any good, so punch a hole in that.

THERRY: Okay, before you got pregnant, have you ever heard that people were getting pregnant even though they were using those contraceptives?

JULIA: I did, but everybody --

THERRY: Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. So you knew that those contraceptives were not--

JULIA: No I only knew that person... oh yea, there was that one night when I didn't take the pill, or I didn't put the diaphragm in. As far as I can recall, and I always checked it out too --

SHIRLEY: No, `cause like he said, no birth control is a hundred percent. You knew that there were people getting pregnant even using the birth control; that it's not one hundred percent.

JULIA: Oh, yea, okay. Alright.

THERRY: So there's an inconsistency there.

JULIA: I also believed I could never get pregnant. That was a very powerful working force in me. I'm sure tied in to the fact that my mother could not get pregnant. Somewhere those wires got crossed.

THERRY: Hey, wait, wait, wait a minute. Where did you come from if she couldn't get pregnant?

JULIA: It didn't matter.

THERRY: What do you mean, it didn't matter?

JULIA: It's not psychologically, to me.

THERRY: In other words, you're saying, because your mother couldn't get pregnant, you weren't born, so therefore it was okay for you to think you couldn't get pregnant.

JULIA: No, I was adopted though.

THERRY: Hey, no amount of adoption could have caused you to be born. So obviously your mother could get pregnant. You had to come from someplace.

JULIA: Which mother are we talking about? You talking about--

SHIRLEY: Your biological mother.

BLAKE: Your biological mother is the one who is the key factor, not your adopted mother.

SHIRLEY: Why would you think that you couldn't--

JULIA: Because that was not the mother I ever thought about. I'm telling you, this is such a murky mess in my mind.


JULIA: I'm telling you that I'm healthy about all this.

THERRY: Okay, in either case, it's got nothing to do with right or wrong, it's simply has to do with the fact that there are higher forces involved. When Karma wants something done, mankind can use all of the precautions they want, and it's for nothing.

SHIRLEY: When you saying that, I was going to say this before, is that specific to Sam, or anybody who uses birth control and still gets pregnant?

THERRY: Exactly.

SHIRLEY: Is that a higher force?

THERRY: Yes, there's a higher force involved.

SHIRLEY: They should have the baby?

THERRY: Well, I won't say that they should have the baby. All I'm saying is that when the forces of creation has an edict that an individual must experience Predestiny, it don't much matter what mankind does; they're going to experience Predestiny. So you can take a thousand and one pills and contraceptives, you're going to get pregnant if that is your destiny.

SHIRLEY: But does that mean you should have the baby?

THERRY: Well, now it all depends on what it is that you're dealing with. She specifically was dealing with the issue of abandonment. So, there was a whole fabric of circumstances around that where she couldn't walk away from. Obviously she paid the price for it but that's beside the point.

SHIRLEY: So that wouldn't necessarily be the same for me, that I should have the baby if I got pregnant?

THERRY: Nobody can tell you that but you. There's nobody on this planet that is sufficiently wise to tell you what you should or should not do.

SHIRLEY: No, but I mean --

THERRY: The LifeForce is yours; your future is yours. Whatever you do with your LifeForce, you're the one who is going to have to pay for it. If you elect to have who knows how many abortions, it is you who are electing to be aborted in the future. If you are electing to have a house full of kids, it is you who has to pay that price, and therefore none has the right to tell you what is right and what is wrong for you to do in your life.

SHIRLEY: But is for me to get pregnant using birth control, is that--

THERRY: Those are higher forces; that is giving you the opportunity to deal with a karmic debt of some sort. There are no accidents in life.

SHIRLEY: To deal with a karmic debt in having a baby? Or, see, that's what I mean--

THERRY: See, you're asking for definitive right and wrong judgments, and nobody can give them to you. The best thing that we can say is we can look at all the possibilities, all of them; one of them or more is what you're dealing with. But it is not for anybody on this side of the double curtain to tell you you're dealing with this one.

SHIRLEY: Can you give me some of the lists?

THERRY: Well, abandonment, commitment to others instead of self, ah, self-sacrifice, the giving the gift of love, giving the gift of reality, giving the gift of union, learning togetherness, learning sharing as opposed to taking, learning that often given is a far greater gift than receiving. There's a whole shitload of them.

SHIRLEY: Those all sound like I should--the opportunity to do one or the other of those, and so having an abortion is not doing that.

THERRY: But that's what having a child is all about. A child is about every single one of those.

SHIRLEY: So to have an abortion means I'm not dealing with--

THERRY: Yea, you're running away from it. Well, nobody knows that. Nobody can tell you when it is right for you to do something and when it is not right for you to do something. That's something you have to decide for yourself using what is right for you.

SHIRLEY: But having an abortion is like, not using an opportunity to pay back a debt?

THERRY: Not necessarily. Nobody has the right to tell you that you're wrong if you decide to have an abortion. I mean, there are so many differing points of view, and so many different layers of truth that nobody has the right to say, well, in this life you should deal with this layer of truth. Truth is so relative that you can change it as often as you change your underwear. And it can still remain valid all across the board. I mean, from the Christian point of view, there's this truth, from the Mohammedan point of view, there's this truth, from an average societal bigot point of view, there's this truth, from the point of view from the needs versus your ability, and you still have a different view. I mean, who's to say which one's right, and which one you really should follow? Nobody can tell you how to live your life, nobody. That's your responsibility. If you decide opps! I made an error. Well, you'll pay for it. Nothing is for free. But at least, if you have to pay for it, you'll at least have the satisfaction of making your own decision; not following somebody else blindly. The life force is yours; it's yours to experience. It wasn't given to you so that you could become somebody else's mindless.

SHIRLEY: Mindless?

THERRY: Yea, no mind. Just do it my way.


THERRY: It may appear that the members here are mindless, but they're not. They're far from it. It's just over here, a case that we all seek to be of one mind, serving the same purpose. We're not mindless, and you shouldn't be either. Not for your lover, not for your husband, not for anybody. You have to follow the first laws; the first two laws, as a matter of fact. Number one, do your own thinking; number two, never, never do anything that you feel or think is wrong. You have to obey those two laws above everything else. All the rest of society comes after those two laws.

SHIRLEY: I just never looked at abortion that way, missing an opportunity you can't get.

THERRY: Well, there's also the point of view that if you have an abortion, you're creating even more karmic debt, you're isolating yourself from the whole even that much more. Because, for every abortion that you make, you are going to be aborted; for every rejection that that force has to deal with, because of your behavior, you make a reservation for that same rejection. However decision you want to make depends upon the point of view that you're dealing with. You're dealing with a question of ethics in many ways here. Which is the ethical thing to do? To bring a child into the world when you know that that child is going to have poverty and pain all of its life? Or to snuff it while it's still a kitten where it --save it all that harm because you can't afford it? You're the only one to decide that.

SHIRLEY: There is no `which is better'?

THERRY: Of course there is lots of which is better. But it all depends on which level and which philosophy you want to look at.

SHIRLEY: Well, I'm asking you.

THERRY: I can't tell you that. I can't use my abilities--or let's put it this way; I will not use my abilities to tell you how to live your life; I just don't do that. Your life is yours. If you're going to fuck it up, you're going to fuck it up, not me. I've got my own life to fuck up.

SHIRLEY: What if you want to make it better?

THERRY: Well, then you're the one who is going to have to make it better, not me. I've got my own life to make better. All I can do is answer questions with respect to patterns of law. The rest is yours. You have to do whatever you want with the information you get.

SHIRLEY: You never --accidentally then?

THERRY: No I don't. Never. I never never never accidentally tell somebody what to do with their lives.

SHIRLEY: No, no. When you get pregnant, it's never an accident?

THERRY: There are no accidents. Everything is predesigned. A lot of times a person will say, hey, she did this, and that, and this, she made every precaution in the whole world to make sure she was never pregnant, and then all of a sudden she got raped, and now she's pregnant. And it was just an accident. No, it's not an accident; it's the Universal finger. There are no accidents. It's part of a plan somehow somewhere, giving you the opportunity to deal with something. (Big pause) You know, just because I say there are no accidents, that don't mean there isn't thoughtlessness, or inattentiveness, or bemusement. Those are usually the three things that people call accidents more than anything else.

SHIRLEY: Something? something?...higher scheme of things. It just seems sometimes, people having babies shouldn't, I mean, they just have them and abandon them, they just die of abuse. It seems it would be better if they did have an abortion, I mean, short of not fucking to not get pregnant in the first place, you know, I mean, it would seem that there are times when it is better for a person just to have an abortion than to put the kid through that.

THERRY: From your point of view. What about Karma's point of view?

SHIRLEY: I would imagine that the Karma would be less.

THERRY: Really? What about the opportunity for the child to equalize Karma by experiencing things that he has to experience in order to equalize his Karma. What about that?

SHIRLEY: Is it for him to live that terrible life? To get abuse?

THERRY: Yes. What about that?

SHIRLEY: I never thought about it.

THERRY: Remember, there are always two sides to a door. In order to equalize your Karma, you have to experience certain experiences. So, it's never strictly just the case of just the mother. There's the child too.

SHIRLEY: There's that perfect example again that everything is okay; everything, nobody's wrong.

THERRY: Exactly. You serve the needs of the situation. In the higher karmic sense, there are no accidents. It's a fabric where everybody plays their own parts in order to equalize their own judgments. If we follow the suggestion that everybody should have abortions, and therefore preventing children from suffering those things, how much pain by that judgment are you putting on them refusing to allow them to have the opportunity to equalize their karmic debt by not going through that pain? So you see, you really can't sit back and judge. Because judgment is a higher level.

SHIRLEY: You'd be just postponing it though, wouldn't you? I mean, eventually they will come somehow and equalize --

THERRY: Eventually, but in the meantime, how much extra pain has you caused them? So isn't that a case where the do-gooder attitude is only creating a whole lot more harm?

SHIRLEY: How can you know what the right thing to do is?

THERRY: Like I say, the best way to do that is to leave judgments up to the Gods.

SHIRLEY: Well, if you're in a situation, you're a junky and you're pregnant--

THERRY: You can only do the best you can do on the level that you're at. It doesn't matter what you do, as you live your life to the best of what you can do, somebody else is taking advantage of it. It's a fabric; you don't live in a vacuum. It doesn't matter what set of experiences you have, other members of your species can take advantage of what it is you're that experiencing.

SHIRLEY: So it could be like if the child you were to abort, that was their Karma to be aborted?

THERRY: Exactly. The equalizing Karma.

SHIRLEY: So then, it wouldn't have been their Karma to have this bad life.

THERRY: Of course it is; it's their opportunity to equalize Karma. If you sit there and have an abortion, then you've denied them that right, and now they have to go seeking another channel to equalize.

SHIRLEY: But if they were aborted, then that was their Karma too though.

THERRY: Not necessarily true.

SHIRLEY: You can be aborted, and it's not a karmic debt?


ROGER: This is a related question. The other day when I asked you when the human life begins the process of reincarnation, you said the first breath.


ROGER: So what to do when you're the woman having the abortion, she's just suppressing the channel, right?

THERRY: Correct. But the life force that had already staked out that channel, still has to deal with all the phenomena of rejection, abandonment, and wrenching.

SHIRLEY: Can we go back to what you said, we can be aborted and it's not a karmic debt?

THERRY: Yea, see, one of the things that you have to recognize is that there are a lot of times, in order to fulfill a specific type of karmic need, you hunt for a channel, and a lot of times an exact perfect fit; there are extra things. But if you're going to use that channel, you have to take on that extra thing. That extra thing becomes new lessons, over and above the karmic debts that you have to pay. Sometimes that extra thing is being aborted.

SHIRLEY: Does that apply to other things too? Like being murdered if you haven't murdered somebody?

THERRY: No, it's usually not that much. It's a possibility, but usually no. Although it is conceivable that a person could decide to come down and be murdered just to find out what it's like. One of the games that they want to play. That's possible.

SHIRLEY: So the abortion might be that thing?

THERRY: That's possible. There's a whole fabric of possibilities. That's why it's not wise to sit there and make judgments about this person is doing that, and that person is doing this; it's not the right thing to do. You leave judgment up to the forces of judgment.

SHIRLEY: I'm just trying to decide for myself; should I have an abortion? I don't know.

THERRY: You have to decide that for yourself using whatever information you have.

JULIA: What about what we had discussed about if having the child would cause it more pain, like in my case, where I might possibly die, therefore the child would have no mother. Remember we discussed that?

THERRY: Yes, but it's the same thing that we're discussing now.

JULIA: Right, so what I was left with with that was you do the best with what you feel is right which causes the least pain, but now it sounds like if I'm also infringing on somebody's Karma --

THERRY: Wait a minute. Back up there. You forgot something. You do what you think is right because of what you THINK will cause the least pain. Just because you think that will cause the least amount of pain, doesn't mean that your decision will cause the least amount of pain.

JULIA: And then, so I might in fact be stopping the Karma of me being a crippled idiot, whom I should have done, and then the child being a wreck? You're saying so, that I'm stopping that?

THERRY: No, no, no, I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that you make the decision based on your best education, your best choice at the time.

JULIA: But then you're still aborting, which is infringing on--

THERRY: It doesn't change the fact that--remember, there are two types of no-nos. There's the commit, and there's the omit. And you never know which of the two is the right way; you can only do what you can do.

JULIA: You mean, which is the better way for the situation?

THERRY: Yea, you never really totally know for sure.

JULIA: So you're playing like a --

THERRY: Hey, that's the nature of life; you always play Russian roulette. There's nothing else that can be done. There are never any guarantees.

SHIRLEY: So there is no better thing to do over another?

THERRY: It all depends on the situation for the moment.

ROGER: First of all, by having an abortion and thinking that you will reduce the amount of pain by doing that; you actually reduce the amount of pain?

THERRY: It's a possibility. It's one of the possibilities, but just because you really believe that you're reducing the amount of pain, that doesn't mean that you're reducing the amount of pain. It could be that the only pain that you're reducing is your own.

ROGER: Well, okay.

THERRY: See, there's no guarantee. There's no way to be absolutely totally guaranteed that you're doing what is right, because what is right is so relative that it's not even worth talking about.

JULIA: So the best you can do really is do what you believe.

THERRY: Obey the first two laws. The only thing you can do is obey the first two laws. Do what you think is right. The first law always is do your own thinking. The second law is never do anything you think or feel is wrong. If you obey those two laws, then you've done everything you can do. Everything else is based on those two laws.

SHIRLEY: So it's like damned if you do, damned if you don't.

THERRY: No, it's not damned, it's not damned.

SHIRLEY: One way or the other, you're going to pay the Karma.

THERRY: It's not damned; don't use the word damned.

SHIRLEY: Well, whatever you do, you're going to have to pay.