Arkashean Q&A Session -- 057

TWIA: You're saying that because we didn't come down here for ourselves and our own experience, that it's not like other people. I mean, I hear other people say at some point along the line, that they don't have to take this anymore, and they don't, and it's for their own self-preservation, and to me that sure sounds like a good decision. Are you saying that we aren't supposed to do that because our purpose here is different?

THERRY: What I'm saying is if an individual is desiring to help another individual, the first thing that they have to recognize is whatever happens, it's not personal. Therefore, their inner being should be rock-solid, and should not be affected by what happens. If you start out liking somebody, then you should end up liking that same person regardless of what occurred. Simply because you know ahead of time that they're in pain; you know ahead of time that they're going to give you a whole shitload of pain. But if you love them enough to try to help them, accept the fact that that pain is not really truly yours. Everything they say and everything they do, it is the dark side within them that is crying. It has got nothing to do with them personally wanting to harm you; it's simply a case of them trying to get out of the pain that they're in, therefore if you insist upon taking things personally, then you have no business trying to help them, `cause you can't even help yourself. And, until you're capable of helping them, you ain't gonna be able help yourself either. That's what I'm saying. All power must return to its source. And it's obvious that in order to help somebody, you're gonna have to get a little dirty; you're gonna have to take on some of the emotions, and some of the situation that they're going to throw at you. And it must also be equally as obvious that people don't hurt people by throwing lies at them; they try to find things that are true, they try to find things that people are sensitive about, and that's what they use. So if you ain't already at peace with yourself, and if you haven't already accepted what you are, when you are, and how you are, then that means that people have ammunition against you. So if you already know what you are, and if you already accept everything that you are, then nobody can ever say anything about you that should be able to get you mad. That's what I'm saying. Somebody who is in quicksand should not reach out and try to help somebody else. They've got enough problems helping themselves. Does that make any sense?

TWIA: Yeah. What did you mean when you said that if I couldn't help them, then I couldn't help myself?

THERRY: You're all in the same boat. A trap is a trap is a trap is a trap. Everybody on this planet is in exactly the same boat. They either obey law unequivocally, or they end up in pain. Now, you have spent how many years now learning law?

TWIA: Eight, nine.

THERRY: So, you know law, at least you know quite a few of them. So if you insist on refusing to obey them, you have nobody to blame for your pain but you.

TWIA: Well, that's true.

THERRY: At least your mother is honest enough to realize that she doesn't know what the fuck she's doing; she has no knowledge of law. To her it's perfectly okay to go out and hurt somebody if it's for their own good. You know better. She does not know patterns, you do. That doesn't mean it's going to hurt any less, but if you insist on refusing to obey law, then get the hell out of the brotherhood because it's going to be too painful for you. For you pain is going to be twice as worse because you know law. Because of the fact that you know law, you can see things that other people just cannot see, you know things that other people cannot know, and you feel things that other people just cannot have.

TWIA: I guess those are the gifts for coming down here and dealing with people in the first place.

THERRY: Yeah, but it doesn't change the fact that it hurts. There's a river of tears behind helping anybody. You can usually tell a great master, because all you have to do is follow the river of tears.

TWIA: You know, that's funny, I went down there, and everyone, especially one person, but after that a couple other people picked it up too, is they kept saying I was sad. I just didn't seem happy, and my mother thinks it's from my lifestyle. It's got nothing to do with my lifestyle. I probably do seem sad to them because I do see a lot and I just don't play some of the games in the same way that they do. I mean, even though I had this problem with her, it's just, I mean, you know, I was nice, and I was helpful, and I did all the stuff you're supposed to do for the holidays and stuff, and went over to my sister-in-laws. She was the one who picked it up. She just can't understand me. I'm real quiet, I'm always very nice, and she said I'm nice and I'm easy to get along with, but I just seem so sad all the time, and I said I'm not sad, and uh, I guess to them that's how I seem. That's how my mother probably sees me too. It was interesting. Well, I guess you're right; she hooked me pretty good, and after that I couldn't see anything. I really didn't see that that's what she was doing. I mean, to me it just seemed like if she was wanting me closer, then she should have been nicer and made herself pleasant to live with instead of being so horrible that I just didn't want to be with her at all. And then, after that was over, I didn't feel like I had anything to say to her at all, or my Dad.

THERRY: Isn't that the very thing --those things that you just spoke of --isn't that the very thing that leads everybody into a divorce court?

TWIA: Yeah, I could see that.


TWIA: Because I really felt like I didn't want to be around her anymore. I mean, talking to you, well, yeah, maybe that's not the best attitude to have. I'm supposed to help them, and I guess I'm not supposed to play their games with them so that I'm supposed to be there to be available.

THERRY: Don't think of it in terms of you're supposed to help them, I mean, you're not an avenging angel, you know.

TWIA: No, that's true, and anything I ever try to do they don't take anyway at this point. It just seemed --

THERRY: Remember, the way that we live--the way that we do our job of helping people is to ourselves live an exemplary life, and therefore, by using our own life as an example, it draws other people to you for questions. You don't try to help people by becoming Don Quixote, you know? Go charging after foolish windmills; it just don't work that way. The only thing you do is create more pain.

TWIA: Yeah, I didn't know how to respond, that was another thing. When she was saying all this stuff. Most of the time--

THERRY: Again, the best response, if you're going to make one, is truth.

TWIA: Well, I kept saying, I understand how you can feel that way-

THERRY: That's not truth. That's dealing with her emotions. That will only make her an individual who is angry more angry.

TWIA: Well, it did. So, finally, she said something, and I responded, and I said, do you know what you're doing? And she said, no, what? And I said ah, maybe I shouldn't have said do you know what you're doing because now I'm really aware when I kinda lead people's minds and that was, I guess, leading her mind to ask that. And I said, you have all these expectations of me that are totally unrealistic, and because I'm not living up to them, you're getting furious. And the other thing you're doing is communicating messages to yourself, `cause she came stomping into my room with how I wish she would drop off the face of the earth. And I said you're telling yourself all these communications about what I think that are forming your perceptions, and then you come in here and deal with me thinking that I want you to drop off the end of the earth when that's not accurate at all, but that's the way you're seeing things, and you're making that your reality and your truth and you're acting from that. And it calmed her down temporarily, I mean, what could she say, but she was mad a couple hours later, maybe even ten minutes later. She said, well, Bud, I told your daughter the psychologist how I felt for an hour, and you know what she said, she summed it up in two lines. She said, tell him Melissa. So I told him, and ah, he was kind of impressed. He said, well, gee, I'm glad I sent you to school for that, or something.

And ah, my mother meanwhile, jumped in, and we got into it again, and the next day we discussed it again, and she was a little more mellow and I explained it to her again, and then the rest of the week she seemed to get mad at it, and she said, yeah, I share my feelings with you and you give me two lines of psychology about mixed-up messages and expectations. You know what I have now?', and she'd say it to my brother, 'I have mixed-up messages and expectations. That's what I get for sharing my feelings with her.'

THERRY: So the thing you should do at that point is instead of being angry or being hurt, simply say, yeah, ain't ya lucky?

TWIA: See, I wasn't mad at that point, but I didn't know how else to respond because then I thought well, maybe I shouldn't have said that because I might have broken her illusion.

THERRY: No, that was fine. It's just a case of now you show her that it doesn't matter what she does, you're not going to be hurt by it. Because, like any child, if you show them often enough that you're not going to get hurt by what they say, they're gonna stop, or they'll go away. So the thing to do is to show her that you're not going to get hurt, you are not going to get hooked, and the best way to say it is, yeah, ain't ya lucky? It's not everybody that has a mixed-up emotion. Usually they're just plain old ordinary screwed up. The key is, as you continue interacting with them, to show them that you do love them, you do care, but you will not allow that caring to be used as a weapon against you.

TWIA: Well, I interacted with my Dad the whole time and I seemed to get along real good with him, but I still felt like I had nothing to say to him.

THERRY: That's because it was her time.

TWIA: Oh. The thing is I felt I had nothing to say to him, even there. We interacted, and I sat on the beach with him, and I walked around with him, and I drove in his new car with him and listened to music, but the whole time I felt like I had nothing to say to him. We talked a little bit. He starts expounding on this race issue; he sounds like a bonafide Nazi.


TWIA: I mean, I mean not just prejudice, just whole theories on inferiority versus the superiority of all these different races, which he has never done before. I mean, maybe he had it in him and just didn't say it, but it's really strange.

THERRY: Maybe he starts out a conversation.

TWIA: I don't know, maybe. That's a good point. I mean, I didn't know how to respond to it and I certainly didn't agree with it; I just kinda said uh-huh until he would finish, and ah, we talked some about his life.

You know, I mean, I'd ask him other questions and stuff, and I'd talk about the car and talk about small talk, but --

THERRY: Well, in the issue, when he's finished, you could turn around and say, do you really believe all of this garbage or do you, are you just talking because it's a good conversational piece.

TWIA: I have a feeling he really believes it; he did it a number of times.

THERRY: Yeah, so you respond that way--do you really believe all of this garbage, or is it just a conversation piece? Is this what you use to try and get people into conversation? Or is that a reflection of your true feelings? Usually they'll either say, yeah, I really believe that stuff", when in fact they don't, or they'll say," yeah, I think it's true; what do you mean, garbage?" And they'll go off in another tirade. So, if in fact they really believe that, then there's nothing you can do, especially at the age that they're at. The better thing to do is to simply go off to another subject.

TWIA: Yeah, well, that's the thing, I mean, when I told him stuff about my life, I could tell he wasn't really interested. He didn't really respond that much, he seemed to drift off --I mean, and I tried the regular subjects: nursing school, and ah-

THERRY: What would he be interested in that stuff for?

TWIA: Well, there would be nothing else to talk about, we already did his life.

THERRY: Yeah, but that would be so boring to him, nursing school.

TWIA: Well, I finally hit on a subject that seemed to satisfy us all which was family history since I was interested in genagraming, and he did talk a while about that, and that was pretty good, but in general it was just the feeling of not having a lot to say to him that I just didn't know how to deal with very well because most of the time we sat in silence with each other.


TWIA: Well, that's what I didn't know; it never was like that before.

THERRY: Again, I'll ask you a question again, and this time don't look at specifics; go into patterns and answer the question. Why? Why did it appear that you guys have nothing to talk about?

TWIA: Well, two things come to mind. Either we're so totally isolated from each other that there's nothing to say, or we're comfortable enough with each other that we don't have to talk all the time.

THERRY: That's pretty good; you forgot one. Let's see if you can find it.

TWIA: No, nothing else comes up. Let's see, silence. Neither of us knows what to say to the other one?

THERRY: Which would mean why? Protection? Each of you protects one another by using silence. The things that you don't say cannot at a later date be used against you. And the things that you don't say cannot start a war and ruin a moment that is rather nice.

TWIA: So would it be self-protection? Or other protection, or both?

THERRY: Protection is what the pattern says, is protection, and it's a whole fabric, a continuum.

TWIA: And when I wasn't arguing with my mother I felt the same thing; I didn't feel--I mean we usually have stuff to talk about. The thing that I couldn't understand about the situation with her this time was that previously the past couple years I had a conversation with her a couple years ago about wanting to be friends and wanting to change our relationship to work on a friendship which she agreed to and my father didn't. The thing is she seems to have been acting on it, I mean, for the last couple visits I've gone down there, even when we don't agree a lot on anything, we can still discuss it and share our different viewpoints and not argue about it and have a decent time and get to know each other.

THERRY: Let me ask you a question that's going to answer all of those things, okay? Just because you have a brain, does that mean you're going to use it?


THERRY: Isn't that the same reply to what you're talking about? Isn't it not a fact that all agreements are logical?

TWIA: Yeah, okay--

THERRY: What has that got to do, and how are you going to handle the emotions? Throw the logic out the window?

TWIA: Yes.

THERRY: Isn't that what happened? Does that negate the original agreement?

TWIA: But why now and not before? For the past couple of years we've gotten along so well.

THERRY: What happened to that thing that I told you about that during all very important holidays people will always--

TWIA: I've been down there on Christmas before, and Thanksgiving.

THERRY: Fine. Does that mean that she's a pattern where if she acts one-way one Christmas that means she's going to act that way all Christmases?

TWIA: No, I guess it could be that she's been in more pain this year than other years.

THERRY: And it will get worse as she grows older. As she grows older she's becoming to have to deal in different ways with her mortality. Her fear and her pain and her resentment is going to get more, because, as she begins dealing with her mortality, she begins evaluating her life more, and there is nothing that will bring you irritation and resentment more then when you evaluate your life and discover that you have done without many things because of what you think is somebody else's fault.

TWIA: Well, so the next question comes with how to deal with it? Alright, you said ah--

THERRY: Now, whenever you have to ask that question, a bell should go off in your head like Pavlov's dog, and you should think--am I here to try to help in the situation, or am I here to stir the shit and make it stink more. If you want to be a help in the situation, then the first thing you have think of is hey, it is the dark side that is talking.

TWIA: And control my emotions, and not give up on--

THERRY: Get `em the hell out of the way; they don't belong there.

TWIA: And not give up on them.

THERRY: Right.

TWIA: Alright, so how do you respond--another problem I had was responding to what she said. If you--obviously, saying `I understand how you can feel that way' gets them madder.

THERRY: See, there are two things you have to do. There are times, if you're going to help somebody, where you're going to have to play the game. And there are times when you shatter their illusions with truth. Okay?

TWIA: Well, I don't know what those times are for either of those things.

THERRY: Well, in time you'll learn them as you grow more. Now, when you decide to play the game, then the best game to play is to up it, up the stakes, but make sure you use only truth.

TWIA: How would you do that? You mean make `em hurt more?


TWIA: When you say up the stakes, then what do you mean? When you say up the stakes.

THERRY: `Cause if you try to make `em hurt more, that's stupid. Then you're already adding pain to pain. Alright, let's play a scenario, okay?

TWIA: Okay.

THERRY: I will play you, as you should be when you're playing a game.

TWIA: Okay.

THERRY: And you will play your mother.

TWIA: Okay.

THERRY: Go ahead.

TWIA: Alright. `I'll bet you're a terrible nurse. You're such a cold fish, and you show no emotion that I can't imagine any patient ever getting any care from you whatsoever. I'm really glad that I'm not your patient `cause you're probably just awful.'

THERRY: `Yeah, I suppose you had enough problems trying to be my mother since I got all my things from you.'

TWIA: Wouldn't that add pain to her?

THERRY: That's upping the stakes with truth.

TWIA: That's not shattering her illusion?

THERRY: No, it's playing the game. She wants to fight, so fight with her. But you must make sure you use only truth. Be very very careful to maintain truth only and don't let your emotions in to it. Keep playing the scenario.

TWIA: `You know, you've chosen a difficult lifestyle. I just can't understand how people take more misery on to themselves. And, you know, I bet because you're so cold, that's why you can't have any relationships. All your relationships seem to end. Every time I talk to you you're ending a relationship. You must have ended ten relationships this year.

THERRY: Actually, I think it was twenty-three. But, just think of all the fun I've had.' (Laughter)

TWIA: Well, when I talk about upping it with truth--well, what I did in that situation was I said you really like adding pain to other people, don't you. Do you really think that you have to tell me something that I already know?

THERRY: Yeah, but see that's not playing the game.

TWIA: How not?

THERRY: Playing the game is to if she wants to fight, fight. But do it with honor. Do it so that you don't hurt her. It's not your intentions to hurt her; it's simply an intention to fight with her. And you can't fight with somebody if you stay Madame goody-two-shoes. That's why if you do decide to fight with her, keep it honorable. But make sure that the fight will continue, because it allows her to pour out her venom and her whatever, but in order for you to do it this way, if you're going to play this game, you've got to be very very careful that you don't allow yourself to get hooked because it can turn into a real nasty affair. So, in order to use this role, `cause you're using the role of the devils advocate to help her, but in order to use that role you could very easily become the devil. You have to make sure that very solidly you've got Maat in your heart.

TWIA: Well, she said --there was a point when we were first starting --

THERRY: Keep the role.

TWIA: Okay.

THERRY: `Cause you'll see that everything my response is absolute total truth, and it's designed to keep the fight going, but it's designed that I won't really hurt her, I just give her back the truth, and that will be painful enough.

TWIA: `Your fortune cookie says be sensitive to other feelings, Melissa. You could do that once in a while, you know.'

THERRY: `Yeah, but it wouldn't be as much fun though, would it.'

TWIA: I said, `it takes two to tango' at that point. Is that the same idea? Or not really, no?

THERRY: No. Because when you say `it takes two to tango', you're attacking her. You're not simply telling the truth, you're attacking her. Your statement was the same thing as saying `you should talk, bitch.' See, you don't want to attack her or her personality. The only thing that you want to do is to state facts as they exactly existed. And that all by itself is going to be much too painful. So that will be sufficient to keep the game going, and it will be sufficient to give her ammunition for thinking later on. Once the fight is over, believe me, she's not going to forget all of these pointed truths that you gave her during the fight.

TWIA: `You eat like such a pig. I don't know anyone else who's twenty-six who eats with their fingers.'

THERRY:`I don't know Mom, how much do you weigh?'

TWIA: She doesn't eat with her fingers, though.

THERRY: What's that got to do with it?

TWIA: How is that using truth?

THERRY: Well, she's saying you eat with a pig.

TWIA: Yeah, I eat like a pig.

THERRY: So, that's a connotation of you're a little bit big for your size.

TWIA: No, it was a connotation of eating like awful--awful table manners.

THERRY: Okay, but the point is you size-step it. `I don't know, how much do you weigh?' By inverting something like that, by interrupting something like that, it can divert something that could be more disastrous.

TWIA: `And you dress so awful. You never wear makeup, you never wear jewelry, you never do anything with yourself. You could look halfway decent if you do something with yourself.'

THERRY: `I don't need to wear makeup and jewelry. I'm beautiful enough the way I am. I'm proud of what God gave me, I'm proud of what you and Dad gave me. I don't need makeup; I'm proud of it, I like it. I'm not a painted lady. I think the two of you did a very good job.' Inside you may be laughing like crazy, but, again, that confuses it.

TWIA: Is this the way you're supposed to be in all fights?

THERRY: Yeah. Remember, right now we're playing the role whereby you have chosen to fight with somebody, so when you fight, you've got to fight with honor, not with emotions. You've got to fight simply because it is your intention to allow them an avenue to bring their things out. But you've got to be very very careful that you don't get in emotionally.

TWIA: Well, you're not really addressing anything they're saying.

THERRY: No, you're not.

TWIA: So, what if they get really frustrated because of that?

THERRY: Try the role.

TWIA: `I can't stand talking to you. You haven't addressed one thing I've said. I've sat here and given you ten things that I've been feeling about how you are, and why they bother me, and you just haven't said anything, you've just avoided every thing I've said.'

THERRY: `How have I avoided it?'

TWIA: By changing the subject.'

THERRY: `I haven't changed the subject. I've given you a true response to every thing you've said. You may not have liked the response, but I gave it to you just the same. You didn't like the question, you shouldn't have asked the answer.'

TWIA: `But you haven't addressed what I've said. You haven't addressed the content of what I said.'

THERRY: `I have too.'

TWIA: `I told you something about your table manners and you mentioned a pig. That has nothing to do with table manners.'

THERRY: `I happen to like my table manners. What's wrong with my table manners? I love them. I go out of my way to --hey, I spent sixteen years developing them.'

TWIA: `Well I think they're atrocious. Do you do that when you go out too?'

THERRY: `Probably a little bit better than that. Probably a little bit worse. In any case, it's mine. I like it that way. Maybe you like eating with forks. I happen to think that fingers were invented before forks. I'm a traditionalist, what do you want from me?' See, you fight, you deal with the subject, but you stay out of emotions, but you're direct enough so that you hit her with truth. The idea is to disarm her without hurting her. Because the truth that you say is going to be painful enough. Keep playing; I'll give you more examples.

TWIA: Um, those were her main themes. She just kinda went back over most of them.

THERRY: Yeah. And she keeps going back simply because you haven't put her at bay on the subjects. `Cause if you notice, the way I responded, there's nothing else you can say.

TWIA: That's true.

THERRY: It ends the subject; it in fact does respond to the emotions that she has on it, but it also ends the subject; there's nothing else you can say. The only thing else that she can come up with is `well, I happen to believe...', and in which case you say `that's fine. I accept that that's what you believe. But, just because you believe, you really don't think I'm going to change my mind, do you? You really don't think I'm going to suddenly bow down before you, and suddenly become an angel in your eyes, do you?'

TWIA: `Of course I don't think you're going to do anything--'

THERRY: `Then why bother talking anymore on the subject. Except that I know what you like, you know what I like, I know you ain't gonna change to suit me, you know I ain't gonna change to suit you, so let's just agree to disagree, and have a lot of fun along the way.'

TWIA: I said that to an extent at one point, and it didn't help.

THERRY: No, because she was interested in fighting.

TWIA: Yeah.

THERRY: So, you play the role of fighting. For instance, let's continue the role-playing, and bring up some of the other past things that she's said quite often.

TWIA: Um, let's see. `You only love me for my money. It's all you want from me is money.'

THERRY: `Yeah, ain't that awful.'

TWIA: `Yes, it is.'

THERRY: `I turn around and leave the house; I don't live with you any more. I hardly ever visit you any more. I hardly ever come anywhere near you, therefore you can't spend that awful dirty money of yours on me. I come maybe once or twice a year, and even then you don't give me no money. I don't ask you for any, and isn't it terrible. I mean, after all, you send me to school. Of course, the fact that parents should send their children--that doesn't count. Ah, you're right. If it wasn't for your money, I wouldn't see you at all. Isn't that terrible?'

TWIA: `That's all you do love me for. I believe you'd never see me if it wasn't for my money, and you certainly take that money easy enough over the phone. You're my voice over the telephone; you call and you ask for money. Money for school, money for this, money for that. You don't realize how good you have it. We're the only one's who've ever given you anything, and no one else would ever give you things like us, and don't you ever forget it.'

THERRY: `Yeah, I agree with you.' See what that does.

TWIA: Yeah.

THERRY: And you can even add sarcasm to it by saying `yeah, well let's face it, I'm just a little snot.'

TWIA: That would stop it even if she's really emotional? I mean, I'm not really that emotional when --

THERRY: Yeah, even if she's emotional, the only thing she's going to do out of that is to become a tirade because you're not taking it seriously. And then when she attacks you about not taking it seriously, then your reply is `well how else do you expect me to behave with such garbage?' Then of course, if she's still furious, she say, `what do you mean, garbage? 'Then the only reply is `hey, if you don't know by now that I love you, fuck you. Well, not really, you ain't my type.' And if that doesn't create a chuckle, it will create a tirade like you've never heard. (Laughter)

TWIA: `And that lifestyle. We don't understand how you could possibly chose that kind of thing for yourself. You're just asking yourself for trouble, and you haven't even been successful at it on top of that. We just can't understand how you can borrow all that much trouble.'

THERRY: `Yeah, but look at how much fun I'm having.'

TWIA: `You don't seem like you're having fun to me.'

THERRY: `How would you know? It's not your fun, it's mine.'

TWIA: `You seem miserable to us. Can't settle down with one person. Always breaking up with people, can't have relationships.'

THERRY: `Yeah, but look at how much fun I'm having. I'm living life to the fullest. It may not be in the way, the manner, the style that you would, but then you're not me, are you?' Most likely there she'll say `no, and boy am I glad I'm not you.' Then you say, `you know what? So am I.' What would there be if there were two of us in the same place.

TWIA: You're good at this.

THERRY: You can be just as good; the only thing that you have to do is keep your emotions out of it, and use just truth.

TWIA: Even when I wasn't emotional, I couldn't think of anything to say other then, `I can accept that you feel that way.'

THERRY: Well, one of the ways of getting good at it is to play roles. You have teaching parties where people get together and they play roles. You have a group, and they play roles, and you hear not only what you respond, but what everybody else responds in their roles. You make it a game, and that way; you create little scenarios, you know, like they have charades? Well, it's a form of charades except that it's beat you. And each person plays a role where they bring forth vocally an emotion using subject matter, and each person responds to it.

TWIA: Emotionally or any way they want to? What's the goal?

THERRY: No, the goal is to learn to respond so that you're fighting, but you're non-emotional, but the other person don't know that you're non-emotional. The other person has got to perceive that you're in emotions. If your response is so droll that the other person appears to believe that you're not fighting with them, then it's not going to satisfy them. So you learn to play roles. You learn to fight with emotions when in reality there are no emotions. Remember you must be on the level of the individual if you want to communicate to them. Otherwise, if you don't appear to be on their level, you won't communicate to them, they won't deal with you proper. Anything that you try to do with them will be a waste of time. And that's one of the best ways of learning. You play these role games.

TWIA: Do mothers and daughters traditionally not get along?

THERRY: There's a funny thing there. In terms of a pattern, the Oedipal complex and the Electra complex are pretty well ingrained, and people pretty well know them, but what they don't know is they have their opposites where the son is in love with the father and the daughter is in love with the mother. And, that whole thing is a subterfuge. I mean, it's all subdued, all of it. But it's extremely strong. And in many ways, that is what helps resolve the Oedipal and the Electra complex. Except that it is so far beneath the surface that sometimes it itself never gets resolved.

And it brings strange feelings to the people involved, because the young son will think sexually towards his father, and be extremely attracted to him, and I mean extremely attracted. But it's so so far underneath the normal stuff that they're not aware that this is what is happening, and the same thing applies to the mother. The mother and daughter. Now then, the sad part here is if the relationship is not developed properly between them, then you fall in to the unrequited love type thing. Now, when the relationship is okay, then that love can be recognized and accepted and the parents normally channel the activity into acceptability. So the so-called sinful aspects are diverted towards an acceptability and everything becomes right. Then it turns into imitation rather than love. Then they begin to imitate everything the person does. But again, as I said, if it is not dealt with properly, if it is not understood, then unrequited love sets in, then problem children or problem situations. That is the source of the generation gap, so to speak.

TWIA: Unrequited love?

THERRY: Yeah, that--no, unrequited love is the affect of the original cause. The fact that the son falls in love with the father--

TWIA: That's the cause.

THERRY:--with sexual overtones, and the daughter falls in love with the mother with sexual overtones.

TWIA: That's the cause.

THERRY: That's the cause. Now, but see these two phenomenon are so very deep and so subtle. They're so very very subtle that I really don't think that science even accepts their validity and I don't believe that science, much of science even knows of its presence. And if that area is not dealt with, then unrequited love patterns take over, and when that occurs, then, you have a problem, because then from that point on it's the pattern of whatever unrequited love brings; it's that whole shpeel. And that is the source of much of the delinquency.

TWIA: The pattern being anger and resentment for not getting what you want?

THERRY: Yeah, among other things. Again, you know, when you deal with that, the sad part about it is, that because these two are so subtle, that it really is not a case of behavior that deals with it so much as it's a case of coding. Again, it's not really so much a case of the presence or the absence of love, as much as it is a case of the expression or lack of expression of that love. So when the bond is okay, the coding is correct, the love is acknowledged--