Arkashean Q&A Session -- 058

TINA: When you were saying that the so-called darkness can use the five emotions against you as well as your body and stuff to keep you more trapped in Earth, that was the description I guess that Dante used and that Indians used, India Indians, about looking at various things, and if you have a strong emotion you're brought back down to the Earth level. That's the same thing they were saying right? Okay, go ahead.

THERRY: You're giving me definitions. What is light, what is dark?

TINA: Okay light was serving the all, or going away from Earth, and dark was serving yourself, or going more towards Earth, getting more trapped in Maya.

THERRY: Okay, does that have anything to do with good and bad?


THERRY: Does that have anything to do with good and evil?


THERRY: Okay, make sure we stay on that point.

TINA: And it doesn't have anything to do with right and wrong?

THERRY: Does it?

TINA: Well, right and wrong is in relation to reference points.

THERRY: Bingo. What reference points are we talking about?

TINA: So, yeah, it would be right and wrong. Well, the reference points of light being away from Earth, that would be the right in that sense, right?

THERRY: Isn't that depending on the point of view you want to take at that time?

TINA: Yeah, I guess we haven't defined goals. Okay, so there would be no right and wrong, no good and bad, no good and evil, and no right and wrong.

THERRY: Okay. Now then, what was the original question?

TINA: What angel of Darkness meant, and whether if you did something that was a dark act, and you acted as an angel of Darkness, does that mean you're an angel of Darkness for the rest of your life?

THERRY: Okay. If you drop a dish and break it, does that mean now for the rest of your life you're going to drop dishes and break `em?


THERRY: Okay, if you go out and find yourself virgin and fuck her, does that mean that's what you're going to do for the rest of your life?


THERRY: You hate somebody. Does that mean you're going to hate them for the rest of your life?


THERRY: Then why should it be any different for anything else?

TINA: So even if you intentionally do something knowing it's wrong because you want it and don't care what the price is, it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to do the same thing for the rest of your life.

THERRY: No, but it doesn't stop you from doing it for the rest of your life.

TINA: No, and you get Karma for it.

THERRY: Right.

TINA: But you're not necessarily always going to be bringing people down and trapping them just because you did it once.

THERRY: Correct. But what does it mean?

TINA: Well, it means that you've added more pain to yourself; you've guaranteed yourself that you'd get trapped again another life. Of course, if you're in a trap, doesn't that guarantee that anyway? `Cause you're going to have the same feelings and same --

THERRY: What about the condition that the person you brought in was not in a trap and was brought in a trap?

TINA: I was going to --yeah, that was a question I had. Are you responsible for all the pain that somebody has?


TINA: For their whole life if you introduce them to something?


TINA: You are. I wondered about that.

THERRY: So, have you not guaranteed that at some point in time you will have escaped your trap and somebody will bring you back in?

TINA: Hum, that was something I hadn't thought of. I guess that's a possibility, or is that the Karma for it? Yes, it is?

THERRY: That's the Karma for the deed that you did. Bringing somebody in, somebody will bring you in. Remember, each minute of every single day is important, not because of your emotions and your experiences, but because each behavior, each thought, each everything does three things at one time. Remember what they are?

TINA: It takes care of the needs of the situation, it ratifies the past, and it makes the future.

THERRY: Right. So, if you bring somebody in to life, what does what does that mean in terms of that?

TINA: I guess you're setting yourself up for that again. And it's not just when you're trapped they'll bring you in again, it means once you've beaten it so you're not in it that it brings you in. `Cause I thought it just meant that they'd bring you in when you were already trapped anyway, and that's just your Karma, but that's not how it works.

THERRY: How can they bring you in if you're already in?

TINA: Well, say Karmically --like the person who brings you out, so to speak. Like if I had Karma this life--

THERRY: How can you be brought in if you're already in? If you're already gay, how can somebody make you gay?

TINA: Well, they can bring you out versus not bringing you out. In other words, I went to the bar because I wanted to experience--

THERRY: Listen for a minute. Listen to what I'm saying, okay?

TINA: Okay. Well, it's already inside you--

THERRY: If you are already gay, how can somebody make you gay?

TINA: Oh, so the act doesn't matter; it's just what's inside you.

THERRY: Exactly. The deed here is if you bring somebody in, that means at some point you will not be in, but you will be brought back in. So at some point you will have escaped your trap, but you will fall right back into the trap because somebody will bring you in.

TINA: But isn't it within me if I accept?

THERRY: What's that got to do with it?

TINA: Seems to me you're still in the trap; you're not completely out of the trap if it's that strong in you that you want to do it in the first place.

THERRY: What happens if you're just going through a phase and you're confused and you don't know, and because of the pain of the situation you get caught.

TINA: I guess that's an aspect I hadn't thought of. I figured if you weren't really gay, then even if it's a phase then you would just go through the phase and get out `cause it's not really-it wasn't in you. It wasn't that strong. That's not how it works?

THERRY: But when somebody brings you in that means they change the set of circumstances, don't they?

TINA: Yeah, I guess they could use love or something so you'd stay there such that you'd train yourself enough to want that when they leave. And what was your definition of trap?

THERRY: Something you can't get out of by yourself.

TINA: So that means Maya's a trap, bodies are a trap, eating is a trap and having to repeat it. But there are certain traps that are with the original game of Maya, and there are certain traps that have more baggage.

THERRY: What you're saying is there are traps on all levels.

TINA: Is that true? There are?


TINA: And so when you say --

THERRY: What's more, there are traps within traps within traps within traps, etc., etc., etc. for each thread of Maya. That's why there is a road that mortal man may not walk alone.

TINA: When you say bringing somebody into a trap, then are there certain traps that are acceptable and certain ones that are not acceptable? Like, for instance, a female screwing a virgin male. If I went and broke some guys virginity because--

THERRY: Is that a stupid question?

TINA: Well, I wanted to make sure that I thought of it correctly.

THERRY: Since when is a trap acceptable?

TINA: Well, then that means --well, doesn't it depend on the level you're looking at?


TINA: Okay, for instance, from Earth, because you talked about traps of being gay, and that it was not a good thing to bring somebody into a trap, but I asked you about breaking some guy's virginity, and you said that was normal because that was part of the regular trap of Maya. And I was discussing that with Wayne, and he said that the difference was more baggage, and I guess that's the traps within the traps that you're talking about, because a guy--if I go screw a guy who's a virgin, well I've brought him into the trap of sex, right?


TINA: I haven't? Oh you said `cause he'd experience it anyway because that was just Earth.

THERRY: Right.

TINA: But he's still getting trapped in it.

THERRY: He did that when he came to Earth.

TINA: What about guys that are monks that never screw at all in their whole life?

THERRY: I don't think they exist.

TINA: No? That's just fiction? I've heard that they exist. Well, anyway, I don't want to lose my point. For a heterosexual guy who's brought into sex, and virginity's broken, he's not going to go and get his head bashed in and get hate and resentment, and all that stuff, or want to commit suicide `cause he fucked someone. But if a person's gay, or bisexual, and they try something that they still feel is unacceptable, all that other feelings that I've run into in the so-called gay world, that's the trap part that's different, it just means extra baggage and it's harder to get out of because of the traps within traps could trap them more. I mean, hatred and anger and resentment and all that stuff can build and build so that they're stuck there more in different kinds of cycles within that trap, is that what you mean?

THERRY: Among those things you forgot an important one. Acceptability. And your answer is yes.

TINA: And that's the reason it's not wrong, but it's more of a trap--


TINA:--because it's on the continuum?


TINA: And so if society accepted it for whatever reason. Say, it was a different kind of society, or Arkashean society, or whatever, then it would still--

THERRY: The trap would be equal.

TINA: It would be equal? Even without some of the sacraments that heterosexuality has, it's still --


TINA: So it wouldn't be any worse to be gay then to be straight?


TINA: Wow, and that's all because of the acceptability, `cause that brings all the other fabric strands?


TINA: Because of all --like committing suicide, and the this and the that because they can't--wow. So that's why the Universe always says that it's not wrong but there's more pain.


TINA: And I, for all my life, internally always thought that it was wrong, but I guess it's really, understanding that--

THERRY: Well, it's wrong depending on your point of view.

TINA: Well, okay.

THERRY: It's wrong depending on --remember, the words right and wrong are useless unless you're using a gage.

TINA: Okay, but if you're using the gage of the trap of Maya, they're both, they would both--

THERRY: Then sex, period, is wrong.

TINA: It is wrong if you're using the gage of the trap of Maya?

THERRY: Um-hum.

TINA: How?

THERRY: If you close the door there can be no entrance.

TINA: Ahh, so there'd be no more entrapment. That was my next thing, but I guess it doesn't--my next question was going to be, and I've been thinking about this a lot, if you didn't want to bring anybody into the trap of Maya, into any traps, not just being gay, then I guess you wouldn't have a baby, but that's not-

THERRY: Not only that, you'd have to lock yourself up in a cupboard someplace and close the door; lock the key, and throw the key away. Not interact with anybody, burn the house down.

TINA: Because you could still trap people by their emotions as well as by their bodies, so if they love you, that can be a trap to get them back to Earth.


TINA: So, therefore, it's ridiculous to say you're never going to trap anybody in anything. It just makes no sense for this level. There are certain traps that are--

THERRY: It makes no sense for any level.

TINA: Oh really? Oh, `cause there are traps--

THERRY: You have to remember the law: In order to come to Earth, you must abide by the Alliance of the Rule. And the Alliance of the Rule says, if you're going to come to Earth, you must play games. They don't care which game you play, but you have to play a game, and all games are traps.

TINA: Ahh, aha. So I was looking at traps as this big horrible thing, but that's not--

THERRY: That depends on who's point of view. Somebody's being fucked, and they're really enjoying it, I don't think they'd say it's such a terrible thing. Somebody's who's being robbed and all of their life savings is going away before their eyes, now they might have a different point of view of it.

TINA: And if you added acceptability to the gay experience, so to speak, the trap would be equal to the heterosexual trap.

THERRY: The reason why it would be equal, is because it would be on the same level.

TINA: Different pains and different pleasures for each different lifestyle; obviously you can't have children with one.

THERRY: Right.

TINA: But you said you can replace certain emptiness with spirituality and stuff so that they can be more content individuals.

THERRY: Right. Therefore it makes it on the same level. It makes it on the same karmic level; the same level of Earth. It makes it also on the same layer of Earth.

TINA: And in that situation, it wouldn't be such a karmic crime, so to speak, to screw someone who hadn't been screwed before, that was the same sex? It wouldn't matter as much?

THERRY: Yes it would.

TINA: It still would?

THERRY: It's one thing to play around on your own level, something else to entice people to change levels.

TINA: Well, if they both be made equal, then how come it would be enticing them to change levels?

THERRY: Because it would.

TINA: Well, then that's saying that it's not really equal.

THERRY: It is equal, but what you're saying is that you would rob them of the possibility or the chance of experiencing child birth. Now if somebody had already had that experience, and knows what they need to know, or knows what they can experience in the normal vein of things, now they could be brought to the other side and everything would be alright; there would be nothing wrong with it because they've lost nothing from the experience.

TINA: Hum, it wouldn't have any more intense Karma of trapping them into anything that was different.

THERRY: No. Because they've been robbed of nothing. Because they've already loved, they've already bore children, they've already raised children, they're already loved children, they already see grandchildren, you know, the whole bit, so there's nothing more they can get out of that side, so they experience the other side, it's no big deal.

TINA: Is each trap on each level specific to that level?


TINA: Well, that clears up some misunderstanding that I've had for a couple of weeks. So as far as working on being more honest, I mean it's just best to try to be more honest and not rationalize, and just if I want to do something, and I insist on doing it, to just do it.

THERRY: As a way of life.

TINA: And say that's what I'm doing.

THERRY: As a way of life, yes.

TINA: And that gives you more security and honesty upstairs so that you can discern different things easier?

THERRY: Yes. It goes back to the old saying that people use. If you don't want the time, if you can't take the time, don't do the crime.

TINA: I've got another question as far as my chain goes. Um--

THERRY: We won't talk about chains.

TINA: Can I ask you about wearing jewelry? See, this situation came up--

THERRY: You already know the answer.

TINA: No, this was--

THERRY: You already know the answer where chains and jewelry is concerned.

TINA: Is a tiepin considered jewelry?


TINA: It is. Okay. Can I validate my understanding of what it is then? If I take off my chain I can wear other jewelry?

THERRY: Yeah, you can do anything you want.

TINA: Well, but I mean, as far as --that was what I understood as my limitation for my last one.

THERRY: Okay, let me ask you another question.

TINA: Okay.

THERRY: If you take off your chain, what in fact do you do?

TINA: I thought I just took off my chain since I still have everything else? No?

THERRY: Aren't you in fact saying, these values have to be set aside because I want to do these.

TINA: That's not a way I'd ever looked at it. It came up during the wedding, and that's why I'm asking. So, am I supposed to wear this all the time?

THERRY: You're asking me how you should live your life?

TINA: Oh, okay, well, okay. Let's put that another way. Is it saying that these values should be put aside till I take this off for massage? Or is that a different situation?

THERRY: You don't have to take them off for massage.

TINA: Alright. Well, I was asked to in Miami, so I did.

THERRY: That's fine.

TINA: Since I wasn't putting anything else on, I didn't feel that that was--

THERRY: But you kept it in your hand, no?

TINA: I put it near me on a table.


TINA: And put it right back on afterwards.

THERRY: That was a different thing. That wasn't setting values aside; that was serving the need temporarily .

TINA: Okay, and so, the Symbology of taking this off to put on other jewelry is putting off my values?

THERRY: Isn't it? You tell me.

TINA: Well, I wasn't sure if it was--

THERRY: Remember Maat when you answer.

TINA: All I can tell you is what I did. I put on a tiepin--

THERRY: I'm not asking you what you did, I'm asking you on patterns and values, what is it that's happening. I'm not interested in what you did; that's your affair, not mine. I'm only interested in truth. Since you're talking symbolically, let's stay symbolic and let's look at truth. Are you in fact saying I'll set these values aside because they conflict with other values, and I want them more than I want this.

TINA: Could be looked at --I, well, I wasn't continuously looking at it that way, but I guess it could be.

THERRY: Again, can you see yourself rationalizing right now? I've already told you that I didn't care what you did, but you insist on telling me what it is that you did.

TINA: No, I'm really trying, I, well, my inner voice says yes, but I really didn't think about it that way.

THERRY: Why does your inner voice say yes?

TINA: Because I chose this chain to wear with honor as a symbol of something I represent.

THERRY: Do you find some inconsistency between you saying yes, but at the same time saying you're taking it off and putting jewelry simply because this set of values won't allow you to wear jewelry, but you want jewelry so you're going to take it off? Do you find that there's some inconsistency in saying well, since you won't let me do what I want to do, the hell with you, I'll take it off?

TINA: Yeah.

THERRY: Does that answer your question?

TINA: Um-hum. And you said jewelry represented--

THERRY: And what has that to do with Maat?

TINA: What does what to do with Maat?

THERRY: What you're doing. The whole schpeel we just went through. What has that to do with Maat? And rationalization.

TINA: Well, it means that I rationalize.

THERRY: Okay. Wouldn't it be better to simply come right out and say, hey, I want to wear jewelry, so temporarily I'm going to set you aside. Wouldn't that be a whole lot better?

TINA: Yeah, and I started to do that but it didn't feel right so I took the jewelry off. Well, it came up because I wasn't sure if a tiepin was jewelry, was what it was.

THERRY: It is. The only thing that you can wear with it is a wristwatch. And the only reason why you can wear a wristwatch is because it's not a vanity thing; it's not designed to make your physical body look more appealing. It's designed as a function for you to know what the hell time it is.

TINA: Well I remember you said you could wear stuff that served a function, and at the time it was a watch, and I had a tie that had two pieces and they didn't stay together, so I had a tie clip and I put it on and then I wasn't sure if I could wear it with my chain, so I was going to take my chain off, and then I decided--I remembered what you said about a situation that would be subtle that would be shoulds versus wants, and I said well, I want to wear the tie clip so I was going to take my chain off, but I wasn't sure if that was quite the right decision since even--

THERRY: Can you see that all of this is dealing with Maat?

TINA: Yeah. Well, I knew what I wanted to do; it was just a question of what was the trade-off--

THERRY: That's not the point.

TINA: What would be the price of the want.

THERRY: That's not the point. The point is to the degree that you have Maat solidly within you, remember?

TINA: To that degree will you know what to do?

THERRY: If you find yourself in a condition, or in a situation where you're not sure, such as when I came to you in a black robe on another reality, how did you know what to believe and what not to believe?

TINA: Well, I have enough control to take myself from the experience, so that's what I did because I wasn't sure that it was you, and not some other dark kind of person that was trying to show me something.

THERRY: But the point is you didn't know what to do.

TINA: That's true. I did, well, I went on previous--

THERRY: You know why?

TINA: Because I'm not usually honest enough with myself.

THERRY: Exactly, and the things that we've been talking today are indications and are examples of how you play with Maat.

TINA: Well, I know I miscommunicate with myself a lot, and I'm trying not to do that as much. I ended up taking off the thing and pinning the tie things together--

THERRY: Do you know why it is important for you to have every little tiny victory?

TINA: Because they govern automatic pilot?

THERRY: Yeah, but that's not the only reason.

TINA: That's the only reason I'm aware of; training--

THERRY: What about the process that each time you do something wrong, it is true that you suffer the guilt for it, but what about the fact that each time you do it it becomes easier to do it. Until finally you're rationalizing yourself right out of reality.

TINA: The first step. That's why it's best not to--even if you're honest about it, that's why it's best not to do it.

THERRY: Right.

TINA: `Cause it get easier to do things that you shouldn't do.

THERRY: Right, and because it gets easier to do things, it also becomes easier to rationalize.

TINA: Even if you don't rationalize and say you're just doing it because you want to?


TINA: How would rationalizing be a pattern of doing things wrong if you just say, if you don't rationalize --

THERRY: It's a case of how far will you go to get what you want.

TINA: Um, a couple more things. Silver is for women, in our tradition, and gold is for men.

THERRY: That's not necessarily true.


THERRY: That depends on the level you're at.

TINA: Ah, okay, `cause you once told me that silver-well, that applied to this level silver was for females. Does our tradition also recognize the moon as a symbol for female?


TINA: And the sun as a symbol for male?



THERRY: Or aspects. The moon can also be for men as well as for women. In our system there is no chauvinism. There's simply aspects of life, the continuum of the life force.

TINA: So the sun would be for aspects of male?

THERRY: As well as aspects of female.

TINA: Oh really? Hum.

THERRY: Like I said, there is no chauvinism in our system. There's no such thing as males or females; they just don't exist. They are simply points along the continuum of the life force. First of all, I don't think I've ever met a true male, and I don't think I've ever met a true female.

TINA: `Cause they all have parts of each other in them?


TINA: So depending on what you're working with would be what you'd use? Whether a sun or a moon, or gold or silver?

THERRY: Yes, as well as other metals. Some people wouldn't use metals at all; they'd use crystals instead.

TINA: And crystals would also be for both sexes.


TINA: And depending on what you're working on--

THERRY: Again, throw away this word sexes. They don't exist in our system.

TINA: Okay.

THERRY: The only thing that exists is a point along the continuum of the sexual vein.

TINA: I was reading this book, and part of it had stuff that we believe in too, and she was saying that true witches got concerned--got mixed up with paganism and neo-paganism when the church persecuted all the witches and massed everything together, and all their beliefs got mixed up. The ones that even survived, `cause a lot of their wisdom got burnt. Is that true?

THERRY: If you listen to what's out there, you can find anything.

TINA: Well, the thing was a lot of it sounded accurate, which is why I'm asking you. And one --

THERRY: Like I said, you'll find anything out there. And all of it, in its own way, is valid within its own boundaries. I mean, it's like asking, is blue really better than brown?

Well obviously, if you are partial to blue, you're going to say yes. The other guy's partial to brown, he's going to say yes. Likewise, if you're studying history, if the facts themselves are so clouded that there's no real way for sure you can tell what happened, then again, it could be blue or brown.

TINA: Alright, well then, I'll ask you from our point of view.

THERRY: From our point of view we accepted those systems are there; we accept the fact that they are valid for the people who follow them, but we have a different way. We're not saying that one is better than another; we're not saying one is good and one is bad, we're simply saying they are different, they serve different needs, they serve different purposes. The fact that ours is much older and usually works far better is beside the point.

TINA: Okay, now we believe, as far as the concepts of deity go, we believe in the Great Force, something that powers everything, one great Force, and that that Great Force has aspects of masculine and feminine.


TINA: Well, maybe that's not the right way to say it, but--

THERRY: Masculinity and femininity doesn't even exist on that level.

TINA: Oh, okay, that's true.

THERRY: On that level there is nothing but force. Differences doesn't even begin to exist until you come way down into Orthodontiks when the first thought came into being.

TINA: Okay.

THERRY: And while you're in Orthodontiks, you're androgynous.

TINA: But we acknowledge nurturing and active powers.

THERRY: Okay, but that's got nothing to do with males and females.

TINA: Okay, right, okay. And we --

THERRY: That has to do with jobs, tasks that you have to perform. Obviously, if you're going to cut through something, you're not going to go out looking for a hammer, `cause a hammer's designed to pound a nail in, not designed to cut a piece of wood. But if you want to go bash somebody's skull in, well, you might look for a hammer, but a building would be a whole lot better.

TINA: And the active and passive forces are physicalized in male and female to do the process of --

THERRY: No, you're thinking wrong.

TINA: Okay.

THERRY: You have to think in terms of the descent. In terms of a continuum. You have to think in terms of how a continuum is formed. Remember what the law is?

TINA: I'm not sure which one you --

THERRY: Of a continuum. Okay, a continuum is matter or a state is used, then it's changed so minutely that you can hardly tell the difference between them, then it's used again. Then it's changed again so minutely that you can't tell the difference practically, and it keeps on and it keeps on so that if you look at two points that are very close together you can't tell any difference between them, but if you look at points that are far apart, there are vast differences.

TINA: Okay.

THERRY: That's the way creation is made.

TINA: And we also--we use the so-called masculine and the so-called feminine for different jobs--

THERRY: For the opposite ends of a continuum.

TINA: Also for different functions, right? You once told me that you use sometimes one and sometimes another. And now also, we also believe that there's an aspect of the Great Force within everything, right? Every physical manifestation?

THERRY: All things that are are an aspect. Nothing is that is not from the Great Force.

TINA: Does that mean that part of the Great Force is in everything? I mean, could you say that--

THERRY: You're playing with semantics; so let me go down to semantics. If we have a pail of water, and let's represent that pail of water as the Great Force. Then you have an untold number of thimbles, and you fill up those thimbles from this pail of water. And it doesn't matter how many thimbles you fill up, that level of water never goes down. And it doesn't matter how many you put back in, that water never raises; it's just constant all the time. Now then, with all of these thimbles lying around, are they part of that uh--

TINA: Yes.

THERRY: That's your answer. Would you say that every one of those thimbles contains a little bit of the Great Force?

TINA: Um-hum.

THERRY: That's your answer.

TINA: `Cause this book was saying that those belief systems was what the original witches believed. I don't know if she was talking about Arkasheans or what, she never specified;

she just said witches, and she said that they were confused with pagans because they believed that there was a force or an energy from God or the Great Force in everything, and that a lot of people took that to mean that every little spirit had its own god, and that's where it got confused, and that, because of that, witches weren't necessarily pagans; they were witches. Pagans were a separate kind of religion. Is that accurate?

THERRY: That was a point of view from some people. But you can't say, that's it, that's the truth. It's the truth for some people. Remember, truth is relative. It depends on who it is you're asking. Obviously if you look at someone who happens to believe in that chronologically and things, then for them, obviously, it's truth, but if somebody has a different idea, then to them it's not truth. Who's going to say what's the difference between the two? Until you find a definitive where everybody accepts that's the source, then how can you really find what truth is?

TINA: Well, have you written any books or anything of that kind of history where chronological events like that were things?

THERRY: Why would I want to? And just because I wrote it, what makes you think that would be truth? Truth is relative. Wouldn't you in fact only get my version of it? You see what I mean?

TINA: Well, then how do you find accuracy in things like that kind of information? Occult kind of information?

THERRY: The information is unimportant.

TINA: Well, I would think it would be important.

THERRY: No, because the stuff you're talking about is only veneer. Who cares where truth really comes from. If you have a piece of information that you know absolutely Universally it is truth simply because you can see the patterns functioning in reality, and in nature, who cares where you get it? Does it matter if you got it from a so-called witch or from a drunkard, or if you got it from an ant, or somebody who stole your wife and ran away with your children?


THERRY: Who cares? Truth is truth is truth.

TINA: So that kind of stuff, the history, you just can't ever figure out because you weren't there?

THERRY: No, you take it all with a grain of salt, you take it all with the understanding of the times that exist, the situation that exist, and man's proness towards trying to gain power. So it doesn't matter if the subject of study is a religion, or if it is a political regime, or if it was a small town combat, or if it's just an individual's strive for power. You take it all with a grain of salt.

Try to understand everything that is involved, and try to see things from the point of view of what was happening at that time rather from today's point of view, and that will give you a better chance of seeing things.

TINA: Did they still have magic in the 16th and 15th centuries when they burned witches? You said that was the last thing mankind lost, and now he just has pain and patience.

THERRY: Give me a definition, because magic still exists today.

TINA: So what was the aspect of it that was lost then?

THERRY: Give me a definition of magic.

TINA: My definition would be the conjuring up of, well, being --

THERRY: You mean the breaking of seeming natural law?

TINA: No, you'd be following natural law. I guess--

THERRY: Listen to my words. Seeming to break natural law.

TINA: Oh, okay.

THERRY: Haven't you seen that?

TINA: Yeah. So then what aspect did they lose?

THERRY: Where and how have you seen that?

TINA: Okay, I take that back. Well, no, okay, when you moved your head off your shoulders.

THERRY: Okay, but don't look --outside of me.

TINA: Outside of you, no, I haven't ever seen it.

THERRY: That's where people lost it.

TINA: So that is the aspect that they lost.

THERRY: They lost the contact with law. And they went far more into greater reality, and as a result of that, their ability to understand law, as it's written by the Great Force, and they interchanged their own concept of law, their own beliefs, and they get caught in their emotions, and what does emotions do?

TINA: Amplifies and distorts.

THERRY: So, if you want to make a cake, and you distort your recipe, are you going to have a cake?


THERRY: Won't you lose the power to make a cake?

TINA: Um-hum.

THERRY: That's how they lost.

TINA: So those of us that are learning law are still in touch with what you'd call magic.

THERRY: Well, now that depends on again how you're using the term magic.

TINA: Were you defining magic as the contact with law, and the ability to understand it?

THERRY: Yeah, I define magic as the ability to possess an unusual knowledge of law. The key, the operative here is unusual, meaning that it's excessively far beyond the average individual.

TINA: Meaning illusions are the driving force for reality, for instance, all the subtle levels you've been showing me over the years.

THERRY: Um-hum.

TINA: So that I can now see different things about reality that other people can't which raises the awareness factor.

THERRY: So to you, do you find that magic?


THERRY: But to the other people who don't know, don't they see that as magic, wondrous?

TINA: If used certain ways, yeah, you could, because you get to be able to manipulate reality if you learn well enough.

THERRY: Exactly.

TINA: Now there are things you can do in interacting with regular everyday people--say I want to get laid, for instance. If I just use the thing of flirting with someone and using the regular behaviors that everyone else uses, that's acceptable, right?


TINA: I mean, that is a manipulation in the sense that everyone manipulates reality in some sense, but it's not using all the stuff that I know in order to do it, is it?

THERRY: Correct.

TINA: Because you do have --or me being in the Hoblet, and living in the outside world, I do have to interact in the world.

THERRY: Yes, but you also have a greater responsibility.

TINA: Right.

THERRY: And it's far easier for you to trap yourself.

TINA: That's true.

THERRY: Because of the --again, I don't really like using the word because of the bad implication the world has to it, but because of the magic that we have taught you, you can do things out there that other people cannot, and therefore you have a greater responsibility.

TINA: Like what? What can I do that someone else couldn't?

THERRY: You could bring people in very easy.

TINA: That sounds pretty funny to someone who hasn't gotten laid in about two years.

THERRY: Yeah, but don't forget, if you think back every time you could have, if you wanted to, a number of times, but you chose to uphold the law. The funny part about it is because of the magic and upholding it, you're going to get laid far less then other people will. Your instances of dead board romances are going to be far fewer than the average person because law and honor is standing in your way. Because, let's face it, on the one hand, you have sworn to try to free others from Maya, but the behavior that you see is designed to trap them into Maya. So, you've got yourself some fun conflicts.

TINA: Well, the behavior that I see doesn't trap them anymore if they're already in it.

THERRY: That's true, but unfortunately you're not always attracted to somebody that's already in it.

TINA: No, that's true.

THERRY: So that cuts down quite a bit of opportunities.

TINA: Yeah, but I don't think it's right, I guess, when they're not in it. I mean, the only ones I've even gone near were people that I thought were in it, even though some of these people, it was iffy, so you're right, I stayed away from it. But if I hadn't even thought they were in it I wouldn't go near them either.

THERRY: Okay, but the point there is if you did not have the burden of that chain--

TINA: I probably would have just gone for it.

THERRY: Exactly. So the occasions of you--

TINA: Yeah, I guess if you look at it that way I could have had five more women, so to speak. All I usually do is date `em, and get to know `em, and if it's not right, I don't do it. But the one time I did do it with someone, she got all wielded out and that was that.


TINA: But, yeah, there's a burden even without this chain to bringing somebody out--of course maybe some people don't take any responsibility for that.

THERRY: They don't. None of them do.

TINA: Well, I don't know.

THERRY: It's a case of conquest. The same thing when a male tries to break a cherry.

TINA: There's one person I know that specifically wouldn't break up with someone they had brought out just because they were going through a hard time, and they felt like they should deal with that individual and all the stuff that it brings out.

THERRY: Now you've left the vein of generality.

TINA: That's true. She's one --she's not the norm for that.

THERRY: So you can't use that as your reference point.

TINA: And she tends to bring out a lot of people too, but--