Arkashean Q&A Session -- 088
THERRY: [...] No, they don't, they don't say that. What they are saying is that, we frown upon liquor. That means we really don't want it here, but we won't take the bother to enforce our laws. Obviously, such a society cannot survive.
REED: Why wouldn't they want it there? What would be the purpose for not wanting it there?
THERRY: That's immaterial. It's got nothing to do with the conversation.
REED: But that's the whole ...Everything gets back to the purpose.
THERRY: No, no, no! No, no, no! You can't... It's obvious if you don't want something there, you don't it because it creates some kind of harm. That's obvious.
REED: So, why couldn't they do that whole same thing, with the blood levels and the amounts and all that? The only harm, it could do was [...]
THERRY: Because they're not interested enough. They don't value enough the thing they're trying to prevent. They're trying to protect the individual's rights over the rights of the society as a whole. Obviously that society is going to fall. It cannot survive. And obviously that society started out at 1,500 and in just such a short time, it's only 600. Obviously in a little while, it's going to be nothing.
REED: That may be so, but I don't think it's going to prevent you from having a beer.
THERRY: It's not the care of having a beer. It's a case of, you can't protect the individual's rights and at the same time expect your society to survive, because the individual's rights are always anti the society's rights. You got to remember that laws are not designed for good people. The people who are basically good and believe in the system of purity and whatever...they don't need laws. They're going to follow the internal higher laws anyway.
REED: Okay and if they feel like going out and having a beer and there's no way they're going to get drunk or kill someone, they should be allowed to do that.
THERRY: You cannot...you cannot have it both ways!
REED: You're saying you can in Arkashea -- Well, you're not saying you can have it both ways. But, you're saying to the people, go ahead and have their one drink. No problem.
WAN: Bad people can have one too.
THERRY: Bad people can have one drink too.
REED: Yes, but they can't have more.
WAN: So good people can't have more either.
REED: You've set the --
THERRY: But the point is, our standards are made into laws. They're not ...We don't have a situation that says we have this, but we're not going to bother enforce it. We say, we have this and if you go beyond it, you're dead! You can't go very much further to enforce that. Can you see that difference?
REED: Yeah, I don't know. Maybe they're not just...Maybe they're not saying that this is our standards. I don't know.
WAN: Maybe they could've been a personal opinion of one personal thought about...
REED: Right, I wasn't there when they made the things about deciding whether or not they want booze there. I don't know enough about it.
THERRY: It doesn't matter. None of that matters, if you take the concept itself, you have something that is a perversion to a society. I don't care if it's drinking a beer! I don't care if it's picking your nose with your little finger as opposed to your elbow! I don't care if it's sucking your finger instead of your knee! I don't care what the thing is! If you have an aversion...if the society itself has an aversion, that means there is a specific behavior that they do not want. Okay? I don't care if it's thumb-sucking on Sunday, if it's nose picking on Wednesdays! It doesn't matter what the behavior is! The point is, there is a behavior that a society does not want. If you do not make that a firm, absolute, controllable law, that society's going to fall.
REED: Okay, when you say a behavior that a society does not want...
THERRY: That means anything whatsoever that that society says we frown upon.
REED: Now a society is composed of people, correct?
THERRY: People who are gathered together for a specific purpose.
REED: Okay, now when we...
THERRY: Those specific purpose...however many there are the things that you say that we frowned upon.
REED: Okay, now my problem in understanding your statement lies in a society seems like a concept.
THERRY: It means the whole. It doesn't mean the individuals.
REED: Right, it means the whole. The whole is composed of individuals. A society itself cannot say, "I don't want this." The individuals who make the society can each say, "I don't want this," therefore the society doesn't want it.
THERRY: No, no.
REED: How can a society want? It's a concept.
THERRY: Because you have to think two different ways now, okay? When you're talking about the society, it's the same thing in America, or any other...or today's sociology when you say "the public."
REED: What does that mean?
THERRY: The public does not mean the individual people.
REED: What does it mean?
THERRY: It means an aggregation, a group, a mass that is the controlling and directing force of all the people. It does not consist of people. It's not individuals, okay.
REED: How can it not be?
THERRY: The public is different from and controlled differently by individuals.
THERRY: See, those are two (2) different concepts that are very difficult to understand, especially if somebody has problems with conceptualization.
WAN: Okay. [...]
THERRY: Yeah, give it a try.
WAN: Okay, in business, let's say if we have a business and we have a lot of problems with people loafing...so the people as a whole in order to keep that business going so that the people still have jobs so that they can make money to feed the families, well everyone wants to keep that business going, so because there's a lot of problems with people, say like, hanging around the coffee machine, okay, so they install a law in that company that says, "No more hanging around the copy machine."
REED: Who's they?
THERRY: The company.
WAN: The company.
REED: The company is a concept. Only the same people that make up that company...
THERRY: No, no, no, no! Damn it! You are insisting on looking at the company meaning the same as the individual. It does not.
REED: Okay. Can I say something?
REED: Let's say that I do not like people hanging around the coffee machine, you do not like people hanging around the coffee machine and you do not like people hanging around the coffee machine. So we get together and we say "We as a group do not like people hanging around the coffee machine."
THERRY: That doesn't mean anything!
THERRY: Doesn't mean anything!
REED: Wait, wait! Let me finish!
REED: And three of us, let's say the concept of the majority, let's say there's only five people in this company. The other two are the ones that are hanging around. And let's see this company is on an equal vote or something like that. And since we each individually have the same viewpoint, we get together and say, okay, well, let's make a law.
THERRY: You can't. It doesn't mean anything. What you are saying is the exact same thing as when the moral majority comes out and tries to control government.
WAN: You're missing the point. If you have a company, let's say if the Manager's coming by and Sally's a secretary and she's got a pile of work stacked up on her desk and it's not getting done, okay? And because that work's not getting done, orders aren't going out and monies not coming in and that way, all these people in the office can get laid off because there's no money coming into the company, okay.
THERRY: There's a better way of explaining it. You're again talking about individuals. When you talk about the public or the company, it's not individuals. Here's a better way of explaining it. If you're talking about individuals, if you remove the individuals, it's gone, there's nothing there. When you're talking about the company or the public, you can remove anybody and be replaced by anybody and it's still there. It is unchanged.
REED: But if you remove all the individuals it's not there anymore.
THERRY: Obviously, if you remove everybody, all individuals, you don't even have life, so that's it's longer in our conversation.
REED: I don't see how the public can exist apart from the individuals who make it up. If it wasn't for them, there wouldn't be a public or a company or a group.
THERRY: Then you have to change your way of thinking. Okay? You have to look at a fictitious entity, a person, a fictitious...
REED: Called the society?
THERRY: Called the society or called the public or called...
WAN: The business.
THERRY: ..the business or the company.
REED: Okay, let's call it society.
THERRY: Now, it's obvious that that person is made up of a whole many individuals. Now if there comes a contest between the individual called the society versus the individual we call Jim, well if you protect Jim's rights, that society's going to fall. It's going to die.
THERRY: There's nothing you can do to prevent it. Jim gets protected against society, then first thing, everybody's going to start getting protected against society.
THERRY: Society's going to fall.
REED: Okay. Because society's bigger, more important than the individual?
THERRY: Exactly. So therefore, when you make your laws, you make your laws to protect society, not Jim.
THERRY: You don't give a damn about Jim. Jim is...can be put in the trash can. You don't care. The society must be protected.
REED: Now you said, talking about "The Farm," the society called the pawn...
REED: ...has these standards...
THERRY: No, what I said was, the society, called "The Farm" has a set of standards which they did not put in evocable laws, instead, what they've done is they've protected Jim instead of protecting society.
REED: Now how can a society have a standard if a society is a fictitious entity? How can a fictitious entity have a standard?
THERRY: 'Cuz all entities have standards. The standards are the purpose for the reason for the creation of that society. For instance, let's say, there's only five people in the world and you, Wan and me are three of those people. And we're living in a present society that says, no breathing on Tuesdays, no passing wind on Thursdays, no sleeping on Wednesdays, but you can eat all you want. Well, we obviously don't like the rules, because it's a little hard on us...
REED: That's right, all Arkasheans like passing wind.
THERRY: Right. Therefore we're going to create a new society and our purpose is to be able to pass wind, etc., etc., etc. Right?
WAN: Is to be able to pass wind on Wednesdays.
THERRY: So now that fictitious entity called society now has his desires. His desires is to be able to pass wind, sleep, and breathe, whatever and [...]
REED: Well, the only reason it has those, is before it ever became a society, three individuals happened to want to pass wind on Wednesdays.
REED: So they got together and they formed a society and now you say that society wants to pass wind on Wednesdays.
THERRY: Right. So now society ...
WAN: ...wants to pass wind on Wednesdays.
THERRY: ...has a standard, a set of rules, the same way Jim has a set of rules, what he wants.
REED: So now, I can understand, you've got your standards.
THERRY: You've got your standards.
REED: They came about by individuals having standards, joining together and forming a society for the purpose of meeting those standards.
REED: Okay, now what if...
THERRY: Now, you're getting ready to pass laws for this new society. You've got to pass laws that will protect the society against Jim. If you don't, society will fall, the same way your first one fell.
REED: Now suppose Jim wants to pass wind on Tuesdays?
THERRY: Instead of Wednesdays and the society says, "No."
THERRY: No, no, no, wait a minute. Our original society says you can only pass wind on Wednesdays.
WAN: No, you can't pass wind on Wednesdays.
THERRY: Right, you cannot pass wind on Wednesday. Well, our original society, obviously is going to be, "Hey, we can pass wind anytime we want to!"
REED: Except for Wednesdays.
THERRY: Alright, if you want.
REED: You're saying our society...
THERRY: Our new society...
REED: The new society says we can pass wind anytime we want to.
WAN: We even sell beans!
THERRY: Yeah, whatever. Now, the point is, when we pass our laws, suppose we say well, our original society says that we can only pass wind on Wednesday. Well, we turn around and say, "Hey, that's not enough. We want it twice a week. Let's have it that way instead, it'll better fit our pattern." Alright. Let's say Sundays and Wednesdays.
REED: You can fart.
REED: And any other day you can't.
REED: Along comes Jim and he wants to do it on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Sundays, so he's a danger to society.
THERRY: Now then one of two things has got to occur. You're either going to protect society, absolute and totally or you're going to protect Jim.
REED: Okay, so obviously you want to protect society.
WAN: Society's going to [...]
THERRY: That means now Jim is a human being that has the right or power of free mobility, society doesn't. So now you have to protect society at all costs by jumping down on Jim.
REED: Okay. Now, I can accept all that.
THERRY: Now, wait a minute, wait a minute. The implications now is what I'm getting at. Now, because Jim has the right of mobility, independent mobility, he has the right to initiate on his own -- society does not.
THERRY: Now, what is to prevent Jim from just saying, "The hell with you, today is Thursday!" lift up a leg and go [faked, squishy fart sound] ! Now what?
REED: Society will expel him. Now Jim can go form his own society.
THERRY: Exactly! You have to make it - the penalty - so great that the chances of somebody else in that society...the chances that they will repeat it, is very low.
REED: Okay, now can I make a similar analogy?
REED: Let's say the three of us were individuals. We're in a big society and we say, "Well, we want to create our own society and the main purpose is we want to have socialized medicine and we want to have no censorship and we want to have..."
THERRY: Uh-uh. Wait a minute now. Socialized medicine is a very specific thing.
REED: Okay, so I'll just leave it at that.
THERRY: No censorship is so vague, it's unreal.
REED: Okay, forget about that, 'cuz that's not my point. I just wanted to bring in some things. Well, our purpose is that we want socialized medicine. It's very important to us.
REED: We want to have socialized education. That's very important to us.
WAN: You can even use just socialized medicine as an example. I mean if someone comes in, let's say a doctor, for instance...
REED: That's not my point.
WAN: Okay, never mind.
REED: Okay, so let's say those are our two main purposes.
REED: I mean I really want those, you really want those and you really want those. So we get together and we say, "Hey, we have something in common."
THERRY: Okay. Society says we have those two.
REED: No, we haven't started our society yet.
REED: Okay. So we've decided, the three of us all agree that those two things are very important to us.
THERRY: Right. Now pass your laws.
REED: But I'm not finished! I'm not ready to pass our laws yet. We're getting together and we're deciding, okay, let's form a society and we're just discussing the formation of society...
THERRY: We've already agreed upon that. We've already agreed now. Let us assume, we've agreed, the society's in existence, now you're ready to pass your laws. We've already agreed that the proponents and purposes of our society is socialized medicine and socialized education.
REED: Okay, now, let's say...I have a specific point in mind.
THERRY: Go ahead.
REED: Now let's say, we're having this general meeting at the beginning of our formation of the society and someone brings the point up, "Well, look, what do you think about alcohol? Should we allow that?" And I think, "Well, I don't know, I don't drink myself, but I don't really care, I don't think it matters to the society." "Do you care?" "No, I don't care, I like a beer now and then." "Do you care?" "No, I don't like it..." But you know, it's like... In other words...
THERRY: Suppose one of us say, well, "I don't think we really want to have it because what's to stop people from getting drunk and because they're drunk, beat their kids, beat their wives, go out and rob, take drugs and otherwise...let's say a doctor is drunk or something like that and he directly disapproves of our system of socialized medicine and stuff and he arbitrarily refuses to obey the laws because he's drunk." What do we do now?
REED: So then I say, you have a good point there. So what do you guys think if we pass a law that says if you're caught with a certain level of alcohol in your blood, you die or you get kicked out and we'll also pass a recommendation, that, hey, if you have more than one drink an hour, there's a very good chance you're going to get this level when you're drunk and we'll equip our police force with blood analyzers.
REED: And so, does everyone think that'll take care of the drunkenness problem?
THERRY: Yeah, I think so.
REED: So everyone's agreed on that. But then there's a few people among the three of us, sort of for religious reasons, they personally, they just don't drink and they don't really feel that alcohol is a general good thing to have at all. But on the other hand, they don't feel that they should stop someone else from having it. In other words, they sort of...I don't know if you can use the word, frown on it...
THERRY: No, you can't.
REED: Okay, I...
THERRY: ...Because remember, we're not talking about individuals.
REED: Well, let's say...
THERRY: No, see you're getting on a very, very thick layer, apparent layer of thin ice. You're bringing in individual's preferences over society's preferences. You've got to be careful here. You're talking about somebody coming in on religious grounds. You're no longer talking about society because the people who make up that society may be composed of many different religions. If any one of the religions starts governing the society your in for trouble. You cant' protect the individual's preferences you must always protect society's preferences.
REED: Okay, so forget about religion. Let's just say, you're deciding...In other words, the point I'm trying to get at, is that when you make the society, it's a law we have socialized medicine, it's a law we have socialized education. As far as alcohol, it's a law you can't get drunk, but as far as...
THERRY: Wait a minute now, you've got to be careful in that the statement, socialized medicine and socialized education is a preference of society, not an individual.
THERRY: Now then...
REED: Because the three individuals ...
THERRY: Now, you've passed...
REED: ...that make it up, it's their preference...
THERRY: Forget the individuals, you can't talk about them. Individuals are individuals, they're not society.
REED: Well, that's why I set this up to say, we haven't formed the society yet, these three individuals are getting together and they're talking about forming a society and they're deciding what that society's going to be once they form it. I'm purposely keeping it ...
THERRY: But you can't...
THERRY: The difference is here, you can't in one breath give society a preference and at the same breath start talking about laws. You can't do that, because laws don't come into being until after society has been formed and has its opinion.
REED: Okay, so I won't talk about laws. I'll just talk about the purpose. The three people are getting together...
THERRY: So far we have socialized medicine and socialized education...
REED: And we have no drunken ...no getting drunk...
THERRY: Now that becomes in the same category as socialized medicine and socialized education, no drunkenness, period!
THERRY: There's no ifs, ands and buts!
THERRY: Okay, now what? What's your point?
THERRY: Because we have no laws at the moment. We're still in the process of forming the constitution of that new society.
REED: Right and its fairly certain that when this society gets formed, those are going to be the first three laws to go with the [...]
THERRY: Those are not laws.
REED: They're not laws yet.
WAN: They're not laws. They're purposes, they're goals.
THERRY: They're standards that you have to meet.
REED: Okay, they're standards. All I'm trying to say is, once...
THERRY: You can't look at them as laws. You can't even think of them as laws...
REED: Why not?
THERRY: Because if you do, you're going to get your two processes mixed up.
REED: Okay, I won't look at them as laws, they're purposes.
THERRY: Right, they're standards.
REED: They're standards. Now, you're deciding whether or not it should be a standard for people to...are we allowed to drink a beer.
THERRY: That's a law.
THERRY: Because your only standard here, is either you have something or you don't have something. How much of it you have is immaterial. How little of it you have is immaterial.
REED: Okay, you're trying to decide whether or not you have alcohol or not. Whether you have Prohibition or no Prohib...or ...
REED: ...only limited, so you can't get drunk. [...] You're trying to decide whether you want totally no alcohol? Or you allow them to have alcohol up to the limit that you've already set.
THERRY: Right, beyond that, that becomes a standard. The standard becomes no drunkenness, it does not become no alcohol.
THERRY: That's means everybody and his brother can drink alcohol, any time they want to, anywheres they want to, under any condition they want to, providing they are not drunk.
THERRY: That's your standard.
REED: Well, you haven't set that yet, you're deciding, do you want this to be your standard...
THERRY: Okay, alright...
REED: Or do you want your standard to be, no alcohol period.
THERRY: Okay, then what.
REED: Now ...let's say, you're sort of mixed on this. You sorta have mixed opinions...
THERRY: Now, what you have to do in order to make the decision, yes or no. You have to make very sure, that you pay no attention to people. You must pay only attention to the result of what will happen to the new society if people are able to drink.
REED: Okay, well, you could say you think that your enforcement system will be adequate...
THERRY: It's got nothing to do with the enforcement system.
REED: ...that if they're allowed to drink...
THERRY: It's got nothing to do with if you can enforce it or not. Right now, you have to decide on what will happen to society, that person called society, if people can drink.
REED: Okay, so let's say you decide that nothing will really happen to it?
THERRY: Well, then you're not right, because obviously if people drink, some people are going to get sick. Some people are going to have their internal organs destroyed.
REED: Just from having those limits that you've already set?
THERRY: Some people cannot handle it. Some people are different than others. To some people one drop is a deadly poison. To other people, they can drink millions of gallons and it won't affect them. To some people that minimum standards will already get them drunk, because that's the way their system is, just a fluke, an accident, an accident of birth. See all of these possibilities you have to think of.
REED: Okay, then let's say you look at the other side of the coin, if we don't allow it all, we're going to have an awfully small society because people aren't going to want to live here if we're that strict.
REED: So, weighing the two. I think that we can allow it.
THERRY: Can you see that you're not, the subject matter yourself, is not individual's rights, it's society's rights.
REED: Okay, yeah, I can see that.
THERRY: We're not talking about, well, Jim feels that, well, he's worked all day, then he should be able to get a beer if he wants to, all it is, is one beer, I know I'm not going to get drunk. Those are individual's rights, not society's rights.
REED: Okay, I see your point. Well, let's say, you decide, we've got these two things, because we don't have to have a small society, however, since people can get sick from it, we certainly don't want to encourage it, we're certainly not going to put up billboards "Buy Michelob."
THERRY: Some people might.
REED: Some people might, but we won't.
THERRY: Some businesses...
REED: We're won't...
THERRY: The government itself won't.
REED: Right, the government's...
REED: ...not going to encourage it in anyway. If somebody wants to do it, they want to put up billboards, we don't care, we'll let 'em...
REED: But we're not, we sort of...
THERRY: But the government's going to have to make a law...it's going to have to.
REED: Yeah, it's going to make a law, saying you can't get drunk.
THERRY: So it is a law.
REED: That you can't get drunk.
REED: But it's not going to make a law concerning...
REED: ...what you do before...