Arkashean Q&A Session -- 141
THERRY: As I was saying, if you could see that as just a battle of just those two forces, would you still be as free with your behavior as you are now?
CATHY: No, but I'd also be as paranoid as hell all the time.
THERRY: Perhaps that's your answer.
THERRY: But what?
CATHY: I've looked for that in reality and it's...
CATHY: Observing people or their interactions with me, that's the only way I could even try to observe that. And I just can't believe that Esther Michaels is really battling for my soul every time she tries to tear apart an idea. And I don't mean by making fun of it just by the Devil's Advocate way that she seems to mind. As a matter of fact...
THERRY: Are you saying that you claim to know all facets of Evil?
CATHY: No, no, I don't. I can't claim that I don't.
THERRY: Are you saying that when your Dad is being malicious and all that, he's still being good?
CATHY: I don't see it as a battle between Dark and Light, but no, he's not being good.
THERRY: Is he serving his specie or is he serving himself?
CATHY: He's serving himself.
THERRY: What is the battle between Good and Evil.
CATHY: Well maybe that's my problem right there, is my definition of it. I don't know. The internal definition that comes to me right now is serving your specie versus than serving yourself.
CATHY: That's not ever as what I thought about it before. I guess before I thought about it as...I know you said that Evil was a total absence of love and I believe that. I guess I thought that Evil was someone who intends to hurt someone else for whatever reason they do it. They go out with that intent.
THERRY: If that's your definition, man, your Dad really hits it right on the nut quite often! True or not true?
CATHY: From his behavior I'd say that was true, I don't know if that's really his intent when he starts to do things.
THERRY: Obviously people do things about of their pain but equally as obvious, they have the intentions to hurt, to get even. So hey, if that's the definition you've given - boy, I don't see how you can sit there and say that you don't recognize it!
THERRY: You've got to remember that all Good and all Evil are part of the same coin and they all have their subtleties. And the very basic difference is one works for the specie and the other one works for the individual's corruption.
CATHY: You once said that Friendship was just a stage for people to try to change each others' values and on a higher level it was Good versus Evil. Is that a correct understanding? I didn't tape that...I wrote it down after we talked about it.
THERRY: Yes that is correct, but now you're talking about differences between levels again.
CATHY: And you said that the vows were all...
THERRY: Look at Reality. You stated a law ...
CATHY: Which law?
THERRY: And by your language you attributed that law to me and by your language, you've never accepted that law.
CATHY: Which one of the laws?
THERRY: That Friendship is but a stage whereupon both will start the process of conversion.
CATHY: And you said that the Veils that were dropped made it such that people don't believe that, right? That was the rest of it.
THERRY: Look at Reality, is it true?
CATHY: Well, I tried looking at Reality after I heard that from you and went out into the world...a lot of times no. But I told you the thing about...I told you that in a lot of cases me and my friends agree to disagree and you said well that was just uhm...not...
THERRY: A way of continuing the game.
CATHY: Yeah, right, a way of continuing the game next time...make a truce.
CATHY: 'Cause otherwise you couldn't convert someone if you had an out and out war with them, so you basically have a truce with them...
THERRY: Obviously, you don't look very closely to your friends and you don't pay much attention to past conversations either.
CATHY: You mean with my friends? Or with you?
THERRY: With me as well as with your friends, plus past conversation is littered with the conversion aspects of your friends.
CATHY: Sometimes we've had the debates...
THERRY: I'm not talking about sometimes debates, we're talking about on a standard, natural interaction.
CATHY: Well on a standard, natural interaction I know they were not happy that I didn't join the group initially.
THERRY: Now you've limited it to a special small group. We're talking about pattern as a whole, we're not talking about any specific individuals.
CATHY: Well, patterns is a group! I don't...sometimes people have told me things and I'm sure...I usually think that they want me to believe...I don't know if it's the way they believe, but I think they would like me to do that because I'd understand better...
THERRY: I'm hearing rationalizations now. I'm hearing rationalizations that are designed so that you won't recognize or won't admit the existence of a pattern.
CATHY: I don't know if it's conversion.
THERRY: The point in fact is, either people in Friendships are consistently trying to convert one another or they're not. They either share and accept the sharing without a conversion or they try to convert one another. You can't have it both ways.
CATHY: I think it's both. I think some people share and don't try to convert and I think some people try to convert. But the ones that try to convert, I don't see that as Evil or Dark battling Light.
THERRY: Who said anything about that?
CATHY: I thought that's what the topic of discussion was.
THERRY: No, you changed the topic of discussion when you brought forth a pattern that existed upon the Earth and it doesn't get into Dark versus Light until you get to another level.
THERRY: On this level, it's simply a pattern of behavior. That's the way people are.
CATHY: Okay, then I think that some people try to convert other people and some people just want to share. It depends on the individual.
THERRY: I can accept that.
CATHY: So now you're saying on another level, that people who try to convert are dark rather than light? Is that what you're saying?
THERRY: I'm saying that that is one of the prime tools that exists in that war or in that conflict. Again you have to be careful because in the discussion, you can not make the statement that every single interaction is going to be this or every single interaction is going to be that.
CATHY: Well maybe that's where my mistake is. Don't some people just seek information and other people...?
THERRY: All people seek information. All people have different ways of seeking information. But it doesn't change the fact that the natural pattern for Man is to convert and he uses friendship as the base to do it with. That's a fact of life.
CATHY: I can see that pattern in groups. The group is friendly to you so you'll come back. They try to convert you.
THERRY: In other words, you're telling me that the group would have it, but the people in the group wouldn't have it? That too comes out of Walt Disney.
CATHY: No-o-o-o! [Chuckle] I see the people that are part of group as doing that to bring in recruits...befriending them.
THERRY: Either that pattern exists or it doesn't. Either that pattern is a part of the species' natural phenomenon or it isn't.
CATHY: Alright, I can accept the fact that it is the conversion factor. Would you say, now if Eleanor acts friendly when she goes to the mall, she meets somebody, picks her up, she starts talking to her, she ends up bringing her to a NOW meeting, pretty soon the person's a NOW member, for whatever reason, either because Eleanor slept with her or 'cause this person decided they believed in it. Alright, Eleanor may have converted her, she may have debated with her three nights in a row and the woman finally said, "You're right" and joined NOW. Does that mean that on a higher level that Eleanor is dark battling the light? I mean...
THERRY: You'd have to go back to the original situation and determine, was the point of conversion for her own duality or was it for the good of the specie and that's your battle right there. If it was for her own specific ego, excessive ego then it was Evil. If it was for the specie, the betterment of all, then it wasn't, 'cause both sides, the light and the dark do exactly the same thing. Just one is more deceptive than the other, that's all. And there is no such thing as darkness being dark all the time and light being light all the time.
CATHY: 'Cause they're made up of individuals?
CATHY: Maybe it's that perspective...It makes more sense. But people don't think of doing something for the whole...
THERRY: To make that statement correct, you'd have to put the period after "think," wouldn't you say?
CATHY: [Chuckle] For some people that's true! Maybe for the majority of them.
CATHY: But how is that judged if...
THERRY: If an individual does not know the law of the illusion that's at hand, how could they possibly hope to control it, much less find peace in it.
CATHY: They can't.
THERRY: Okay. So if you can't recognize the battle between Good and Evil within each individual, how could you possibly hope to straighten out your own value systems? If you can't decipher when you're serving yourself and when you're not, how can you do anything at all for that matter?
CATHY: I can decipher it within myself. But then...
THERRY: Pass the bread, here comes some baloney! Because the statement you just made implied that everything that you've done knowingly was an intentional act, that you have intentionally committed evil and there just ain't no way that I believe that. And what's more, if that statement were true, then there's nothing that I could teach you, because you'd already know it all.
CATHY: That's true. I was referring to the concept of knowing inside myself what I did for the whole and what I did for myself.
THERRY: And that's what I challenged.
CATHY: I guess I was only thinking about one situation.
THERRY: Wouldn't it be nice if life was one situation!
CATHY: [Chuckle] I guess generally I probably...the only...alright, I can accept that. The only times that I do know that I've done [wrong] is when it's very blatant...like when I'm trying to take somebody else's mate and realize...
CATHY: That was the situation I was thinking of and I said I could tell, the rest of it...the rest of it I probably couldn't tell. So to sum up values, can...I guess that summed it up. [Telephone ring] I can't really think of the words. Basically, if the difference is between values and beliefs and values being my prime axioms, if Arkashean values are going to be my prime values, I have to figure out what they are and then prioritize them, right?
CATHY: And how I figure out what they are than the ones I already know.
THERRY: You also have to figure out what your level of truth.
CATHY: My level of truth? What does that mean?
THERRY: As an example, let's say a certain behavior is forbidden by your value systems and along comes this beautiful lady, is that going to blow out your values?
CATHY: Well it hasn't sometimes and it has once. I managed to go through seven people without doing anything that I wasn't supposed to do with them. [Chuckle] However, along came this babe and I was playing, "It's not fair!" But yeah, well I would like to make them to stick to. I mean that is the point of value systems, although I used to say, "It's not wrong;" now I just say, "It's wrong and I'm going to anyway!" I guess it's not the best thing to do.
THERRY: So obviously you have to reinstall your attitudes with axioms. 'Cause if you start trading them off, by saying, "It's wrong but I'm going to anyway," then why bother having value systems!
CATHY: That's true! So after I determine the Level of Truth...So Level of Truth is basically whether you're going to follow them or not follow them? And then you determine...so how do you figure out what they are?
THERRY: You have to decide that.
CATHY: Or is it the process of holding them over time? Is that what people do to find values?
THERRY: You have to decide that too.
CATHY: Well if you check your coherent value system, you have to decide if they're true for you, I guess and for your life, right?
CATHY: Or is it the type of thing where it's going to have some things that you don't like and you take them too. That doesn't make sense if it's an axiom you're going to follow.
THERRY: But it does make sense! It's perfect sense! If one of the values that have incorporated in your value system is, "Thou shalt not steal another person's mate," you may not like that, especially if this real beautiful one comes back, but she's married, you may kick your ass for having that value system, but you can still obey it.
CATHY: That's true. Is it a value to say that...uhm, well values limit your behavior, right?
CATHY: So if you say you're not going to have affairs or be with people that are married that don't have open relationships, that's a value?
THERRY: Yes, a rather shaded one, but yeah.
CATHY: Well, the shading I guess comes in if you're going to have it with people who are open, right?
THERRY: Yeah talk about a beautiful point for corruption to come in.
CATHY: Yeah and I suppose it is one that's also real common unless you decide to just stay away from married people. What if you have a value and it doesn't fit or you find you don't want to keep it after a time of living with it? Then you just change it?
THERRY: Perhaps you should investigate why you had it as a value to begin with.
CATHY: Are the function of values, other than to limit your behavior, to cause you less pain or to help you grow? Or...
CATHY: Both of those?
CATHY: Well I guess, not stealing another one's...not running out with someone else's mate is because you don't want to steal 'em. I guess that's why I asked you about the married people with open marriages because that's one value I've been struggling over as to whether I should have it or not as far as...whether I should just stay away from married people regardless of the state of their marriage with their other mate.
THERRY: Seems to me that that is one helluva big rationalization!
CATHY: How so? I've had the value so far that I would go out with people with open marriages. Cher didn't have that...with Cher I just went against my values period.
THERRY: How're you going to tell when you're rationalizing and telling yourself they do have open relationships otherwise...
CATHY: 'Cause I ask them. An open relationship to me is if both parties have agreed to it verbally.
THERRY: So if she says "Yeah we're open" because she wants to get into it...
CATHY: I've never had anyone do that.
THERRY: That means it can't happen, right?
CATHY: No, it can happen I suppose. Well the only other way you can tell is time but generally people that I've known who have been honest about it. Heather told me they didn't have an open relationship and she was still ducking around. A year later she told me she did have an open relationship because they'd changed it. So I started hanging out with her at that point. But I didn't for the time that she didn't have an open relationship. Well yeah, I guess someone could lie in which case...in which case it's just inadvertent, I mean... I guess it's the same thing...
THERRY: Sounds to me like you're preparing the bread for the baloney already.
CATHY: No, I was just going to say I guess ...now I forget what I was going to say. I guess it doesn't matter. Well...
THERRY: In order to hold your value system sacred, you should have the attitude, "No matter what, I'm going to follow the system." Sounds to me like you've already putting a whole lot of codicils to it.
CATHY: Well when I initially started out, I had the attitude I was going to follow them but not as...not in the same attitude that I have now. So maybe I didn't have that attitude. Initially, I had the illusion that I had the attitude that I was going to follow them. And so I did say that I would go out with people that were married if they had an open relationship specifically because I intended to follow my values and I didn't want to make values that I couldn't live by or with. I guess that does get into trade offs because I don't want to steal somebody else's mate and if you're in open marriage there's a potential that they fall for you and then that gets into a whole lot of pain. It's not my first choice for relationships. And I guess I was wondering if it was a valid value because I guess the trade off is it cuts down on the number of people that you can go out with in an already slim selection, in a town of limited size, with women of sub-culture lifestyles, since my one value that is a taboo for me is not bringing people out.
THERRY: Do you know what that sounds like to me?
THERRY: Sounds like you're saying, "I will not go out with people who are married. But if it's a choice between me sitting home and being lonely, buddy, duck you! I'm going to steal your mate every opportunity I can!"
CATHY: I can understand how it sounds like that. I've had a number of affairs with people that it didn't happen at all, with compatible friendships. And to my knowledge the people are still together and if they broke up, they broke up because they wanted to.
CATHY: You don't think that's true. You think that every...maybe it's not...maybe everything that somebody does in a situation like that leads to them breaking up...is your thought that about them...so it's better to stay out of something like that from that perspective.
THERRY: When I grew up the definition of a mate meant it was you and that person, not you and everybody else you could squeeze in between.
CATHY: [Chuckle] The bars frequently have couples coming in to pick up people that are single. Not that that's any excuse for it.
THERRY: You're correct, they do. But on both sides of the fence which simply means their present relationship is very quickly going right down the tubes. If they have to infuse somebody between their sheets in order to enjoy one another, it's pretty difficult to accept the fact that they're still mates.
CATHY: That's true. My relationships with people that were single were definitely always better. There was less pain! [Chuckle] I wasn't afraid of stealing anybody and there was a chance for a relationship to grow if there was going to be one. I suppose that should tell me something. Putting myself in no-win situations, is probably not a good way to gain contentment. God, there was another question I had thought of. And now I can't think of it and since I can't think of it, I do have an aside I was thinking about. It was Eleanor's birthday and I had gotten her a card and I was wondering...what I wanted to do, was I wanted to say that I wanted to start over as friends or something to that effect. Do you think that I should not say anything about anything in the past?
THERRY: Yeah. Why set the calls? Why not let the future speak for itself?
CATHY: Sometimes things are real nice between us as friends and sometimes things are really strained. The last time we were together I got the feeling she wanted to sleep with me.
THERRY: [Telephone ring] Okay.
CATHY: I didn't acknowledge her behavior. She was real indirect and she had said that she had previously felt pressured and she wanted space. So I've just not been acting...I've been trying to act as a friend if I acted anyway. So when we went to a movie, she was just kind of leaning up against me and stuff and I just got the feeling that there was tension there and that she wanted something else and I didn't say anything or act on it and I just kinda pretended that I didn't see it. And I'm not sure that what I was saying was accurate either. It might've been something else, but that was just the sense that I got. It's just kinda awkward because we've never talked about anything that went on.
THERRY: There are some people, if you talk to them, it's gone. There's some people, it's got to be spontaneous.
CATHY: Well I know, you told me that as far as bringing things to the level of logic when you start something, but how about when it's either ended or rocky or...
THERRY: There are some people that you can never do it with 'cause they too don't like commitments.
CATHY: So I just shouldn't acknowledge anything that went on between us?
THERRY: That I can't tell you. You have to decide that for yourself.