Arkashean Q&A Session -- 017

CORA: Help me understand why parents act the way they do with their children. I have trouble understanding this sex thing, with pink for girls and blue for boys... why the double standard? Is it prejudice in the making? Why do boys seem more special to fathers? And girls to mothers?

THERRY: It never even enters the parent's mind at all that it's sexually based. To them it's just an early attempt to train each for the respective roles that they are expected to play. Without knowing it, the parents seek to show a difference between what a boy is supposed to become, and what a girl is supposed to become. The boys basically the fathers, and the girls are basically the mother's.

In one case it's just a little boy going, or generating towards his daddy because of security factors, and all of this other jazz. So that love is acknowledged between them and it is channeled such that love becomes imitation and that becomes the seat of all learning of the role that the child should become. That's how the young boy becomes a man, taking on his father's values, his father's ways, his father's method of dealing with stress. Remember that we are talking about three levels of creation here: The Physical level; The Emotional level; and The Psychological level of training.

On the physical level the child learns what is acceptable body language for a male in that society; On the emotional level the child learns how to handle different stress that he will encounter as a male in his society; On the Psychological level the child learns when to use his head when he experiences a stressful situation. Or along the same line, he takes on his father's lack of dealing with stress. If the father deals stress with alcohol, so will the child. If the father deals stress by running to the medicine cabinet and getting an aspirin, well then, so will the child... except the child might not use aspirin; may use another drug. All of these messages are so subtle that the parents are not aware of it--

CORA: But you also get patterns from the opposite sex parent too, don't you?

THERRY: Not necessarily... in this particular case the interaction between the parents teach stability, self-confidence... It allows for the development of an early ID system, and allows for the stabilization of the Trust/mistrust factor in the child. If the relationship between the parents are not what they should be then the child may develop different than the expected roles.

CORA: But what about boys that remind you of their mothers instead of their fathers? It's just a different thread of the fabric?

THERRY: Yea, just a different thread. Usually the boys who imitate their mothers instead of their fathers, usually it's because that subtle underflow between them and their fathers didn't exist.

CORA: And what about people that are gay? How does that work for them? Or bisexual.

THERRY: Usually-again, now when you're talking about the gay question, there's a whole lot that's involved here. There's about twenty-six or twenty-seven different threads of the fabric. One of the threads is the fact that this underlying thing between the son and the father did not exist, so the son imitates the mother because there was more security there... more acceptance there. Or the underlying thing between the mother and the daughter didn't exist so the daughter imitates the father because there was more acceptance there. Now we have a physical male with an emotional female. And, we have a physical female with an emotional male.

So they take on the--see the thing that is not realized is when they take on the values, when imitation comes in, then it's not simply surface awareness that gets imitated, it's inner feelings. Inner values. I don't think people realize this. And when the inner values are taken care of, the inner feelings, the inner longings, the inner desires, things that are not spoken of also get transferred; but you get some stuff from inference, you get some stuff from patterns, you get some stuff from the way you handle yourself, your body movements and how they react to somebody--all of those things are also absorbed, because that forms the very basis of the solidification of the I.D. system, and most people do not realize this, that this subdued thing is very, very important. It's far more important to the I.D. system.

CORA: Was that absent between me and my mother?

THERRY: Yea. Instead it went between you and your dad, `cause your mother wasn't there. She was running off somewhere all the time.

CORA: And that's what caused the bisexual part of my nature to be so strong?

THERRY: Well, let's say that has its seed there... because that is only one thread of the sexual continuum.

CORA: Yea, `cause I remember--

THERRY: Again, you got to remember there are a lot of threads involved, and thus far we only talked about one. So you can't say, Ha, that's the cause. It's just not true; there are other things that are involved.

CORA: But I do remember being attracted to other women, and crushes on teachers, female teachers, and I was really little.

THERRY: Yea, but you have to understand that there's a little bit of that naturally--

CORA: With everybody?

THERRY:--with everybody. That's that underlying thing that I was talking about.

CORA: Even on the same-sex teachers and stuff?

THERRY: Yea.

CORA: `Cause of imitation?

THERRY: Yea. Well it's--well, not really, because the crush that you have, you specifically, not everybody else, the crush that you had was sexually based. That was because of that underlying thing.

CORA: Not being there with my mother, but being there--

THERRY: No, no, no, let's not talk about the presence or the absence of it, let's simply say we're talking about that particular subject, that underlying--there isn't really a name for it. And I really don't want to give it the name of innate homosexuality, because that's not accurate. Although it would appear that it would be, but it really isn't.

CORA: But you said that it wasn't present with me and my mom; it was present with me and my Dad? How would, how would that affect--

THERRY: Because normally, the normal thing is that the son will have sexual overtones to his Dad... but it will not be recognized as such, and the daughter will have sexual overtones with her mother, again that will not be recognized as a sexual attraction because that is the very beginning of imitation. That's the natural phenomenon, and that gets resolved as the child gets older. But when both the underlying and the natural are both in that way, then you're going to have either homosexuality or bisexuality, depending on the other factors. The same thing applies with the male child. Very, very very few people know this, very few, because this is one of the aspects of psychology that the people ain't so brilliant about yet.

CORA: And the imitation that would go on with the same-sex parent would go on with the opposite-sex parent if this--

THERRY: No, `cause it's turned into imitation, and it becomes the seed of your I.D.

CORA: So, if you have this underlying thing going to the opposite sex parent, like me going towards my Dad, does that mean the same--

THERRY: You end up--the potential for you ending up the way you are is very great because look how masculine you are in your emotions.

CORA: Does that also mean that the imitation factors and the seed of my I.D. is more towards my Dad instead of my Mom?

THERRY: Alright, let's see if you can answer that yourself.

CORA: It seems like it is. Seems like yes.

THERRY: Exactly.

CORA: I mean, it wasn't until you showed me things about women very recently that I even identified myself as a woman at all inside my own head.

THERRY: Right. See, very very few people realize that this underlying thing is so very very very subtle that they don't even believe it exists. But yet it is the core of the I.D. formation. Most people think that much of the problem comes from an unresolved complex. But again, as I said, there are twenty-six threads, at least. So you can't point to it and say, Ahah! that's the cause.

CORA: So how does that relate to relationships between mothers and daughters when they get older. I've got a lot of friends who get along much better with their sons than their daughters, and in my family that seems to be true. Even my extended family.

THERRY: You'll have to re-ask your question to be more direct, because that question was so nebulous that I really don't know how to answer it.

CORA: Okay, how does that--my initial question was is--do mothers and daughters usually not get along as a pattern?

THERRY: Um, there's a potential for that depending on the relationship that grows up. Depending on how they can resolve the underlying complex, that will determine if they get along or if they don't. Now, also, don't confuse the natural autonomy aspects of growth with getting along or not getting along with your folks, `cause they're different. Quite often it will appear that the child does not get along with the mother, but that's probably because they're simply going through autonomy.

CORA: Well how about father and son, is it the same thing?

THERRY: Same thing, same pattern. Also, a great deal that you have to take into consideration is the presence or the absence of machismo in both parents.

CORA: There can be a presence of it in a female parent? A machismo?

THERRY: Would you say you're machismo?

CORA: No.

THERRY: You wouldn't? What would you call your masculinity?

CORA: Oh, okay. I guess I'd call it anima and animus.

THERRY: You'd call it what?

CORA: Anima and animus based on Jung who says it's just a masculine and a feminine in everybody.

THERRY: So is it not a fact that the only thing you did right now is change a label that suited you more?

CORA: Well no because machismo has a different definition. Machismo means extra macho. It means a thousand percent excessive ego of a male.

THERRY: Not in my definition.

CORA: No? That's the common definition. If you're macho, that's what you are; you're excessively male. You know, the marching around?

THERRY: That's not true, because there are many men who have tremendous macho, but they're also gentle, they're kind; they're loving, they're caring.

CORA: Well, the general usage of macho is different than that.

THERRY: Okay, I can accept that. Alright, then for this definition, let's use the word not macho simply means the male ego.

CORA: Okay.

THERRY: And in this particular conversation it's present in both the female and the male, and it has a lot to do with--meaning of course that when you're using it with the female, you're not necessarily saying the male ego in the female, but you're also saying the female ego in the female. Likewise, when you apply it to the male, it's the male ego in the male, plus the female ego in the male. It's all the excessive parts.

CORA: I can see that. So that also depends on how they're going to get along with their same sex children?

THERRY: As well as the opposite sex child.

CORA: Now the male aspect of the female ego in the female determines--

THERRY: One more thing is the degree of peace there is between the two parents. Because children love to play one against the other.

CORA: But the male part and the female ego is what determines how the female gets along with both male and female children?

THERRY: In terms of the underlying aspect, yea. If their own underlying aspect is resolved, then there's really no great problem because the parent will resolve or will attempt to resolve it by channeling it correctly if everything else is okay. But if the parents underlying is not resolved, such as your mother's, for instance, then there's no way yours can be resolved either.

CORA: The underlying what? You mean that underlying incurring that you're talking about, with her running to her mother's?

THERRY: Yea.

CORA: You're saying that her's isn't resolved?

THERRY: No.

CORA: How come if hers isn't resolved, mine can't be resolved?

THERRY: `Cause she can't have a true wholesome relationship with a woman.

CORA: Then mine isn't even there with her; mine's with my Dad.

THERRY: Right.

CORA: So what's that mean in terms of my relationship with women?

THERRY: Well, you already know what that is.

CORA: Yea, mine seems to be more there in every area.

THERRY: Sure, you play the man's part with the women.

CORA: I seem to genuinely like women.

THERRY: Yea, of course; men usually do.

CORA: Which brings me to something else that happened in Miami which is kind of weird. I mean, I told you a little bit about being aware of a sexual kind of thing between me and my Dad. Well, that was a lot more pronounced, at least on my part this time. Which is really strange.

THERRY: Well, that may be a good thing. I realize that most of society would be shocked at that, but this may be a very good thing. It's a sign of what could be happening. Like I say, what `could'be happening is that the things that you should have felt when you were extremely young you're probably beginning to feel them now which means you have one hell of a retarded I.D. But it would fit the pattern as to what you are. In which case, what will happen is, like any child, that will be resolved. And as that is resolved, then your female nature will begin growing, and your desire for men will grow, or become more healthy, to use a stupid terms.

CORA: Wouldn't that cause me more problems?

THERRY: Oh hell yea, because you'll be sitting on the fence and be vacillating back and forth for quite some time. You'll be fighting with the desire that you've had all of your life, but there a healthier situation in that, as each become equal, you'll be freed from both. As one grows, however, they're going to keep tugging and pulling. But once they're both truly equal, then you'll be freed because you won't care which one; you'll be a true Bi.

CORA: When you were talking about the pool a couple of weeks ago, were you referring about a gay pool or a bisexual pool?

THERRY: Neither. I was talking patterns.

CORA: Alright but you said something about me spinning a bane or something about-that was bisexual-about--

THERRY: I was talking patterns, Cora. I always talk patterns. The only thing that I was telling you is that in anything you do you create a pool of pain. Any time that you do things that you know are wrong or that you are caught in a game that draws you towards Earth, that creates a pool of pain, and in order to grow you have to pass through that pool of pain in order to get out of it. That pool of pain is in fact the accumulation of all your training, the sorrows that goes into it, the whole bit. Fighting your body habits, your mental habits, doors, the unrequited love, all of that garbage; that's all part of the pool of pain.

CORA: Then I took it too literally when we first discussed it.

THERRY: That's because you keep forgetting when you come here the only thing we want to talk about is patterns; we're not interested in specifics. We only use specifics for role playing.

CORA: Well you mentioned a specific one with me in relationships, and that I wouldn't be able--I'd want something, and I'd get it, and I wouldn't be happy with it--

THERRY: If you remember, the only reason why I mentioned a specific is because you asked me what was in that pool of pain.

CORA: Yea, I remember that I asked.

THERRY: Well, if you weren't prepared for the answer, don't ask.

CORA: No, I'm just trying to under--make sure that I had it accurate, and so was that Bi-sexual, or gay because I thought--

THERRY: Well, whatever it was that I answered. The point is my reply was to what was in that pool of pain. For you it happened to have been that. But that wasn't the only thing; there's other things. Part of what's in the pool of pain is your physical training. If you trained your body to require certain types of manipulation or whatever, that's part of the pool of pain that you have to overcome. To the very young child, quite often the pool of pain for them is the requiring of excessive physical care. When they don't get it, they go in a tirade. And in order for them to be autonomous, they have to go through that and learn that the mother or the father can't be there all the time. Pulls the pain of--you know, it's relative to the individual and their situation and their history, and of course, their Karma.

CORA: Well that's interesting. `Cause the other thing I felt along with this attraction for my father was kind of a disgust for my mother.

THERRY: That's because of the underlying thing. Because, as children grow--again, I'll use the word normal. It's so off-hatted. As normal children grow, once their things are resolved, they have a very huge attraction for the opposite sex, and a repulsion to their own sex. That's just what you're feeling, except, because of the cross, that's the way it is.

CORA: But the thing is, I don't feel that with women in general, just my mother in particular.

THERRY: That's because you're dealing with just those areas. The combination of the underlying thing and the seeming rejection that come because of her not being there when you needed her most.

CORA: Oh, I see.

THERRY: You haven't grown sufficient to the point where you can use that for generalization. But in time it will. See, you're dealing with the seeming inconsistencies between what was and what you believe should have been... that's what makes it so difficult. Right now you're dealing with the sexuality aspects and you're at a point where you're--let's go on a small aside for a moment, okay? If we want to talk about getting to know all of the planet Earth, do we talk about all of the planet Earth, or do we talk about just one little subject, say, like science?

CORA: One little subject at a time.

THERRY: Okay, so that means it's possible to cut that even further and say we'll talk rocks rather than science, and keep cutting and keep cutting until you're dealing with just one little subject. But that doesn't mean that all the other things stop; it still goes on. Let's take that approach in this particular subject, okay? Right now you're dealing with the underlying factors as it is interacting with the unresolved complexes with your mom and your Dad. Okay? But because her underlying is unresolved, you could not go to her to resolve yours, so you went to your Dad's, therefore you took on the internal values of your Dad. And for you, the only way you can really have sex is to have sex with a woman because that's all he does. So, now--

CORA: That's true, you know? It feels more normal when I'm in bed with a woman.

THERRY: Yea, because you know, that's these underlying things. Now then, what's happening is the other side of the coin is saying, hey, wait a minute, I want to have some fun too; I want to grow too. So as you flip in your mind, as the other side takes over, so to speak--again, don't confuse this with multiple personalities or schizophrenia, or all this other bullshit; it's got nothing to do with it, okay? It's another part of you; it's another aspect of growth that was retarded at youth and is beginning to catch up. So as it is in control of the feelings and stuff, then it is not going to copy what is already there. So, it's going to try to insist on going towards your Mom rather than your Dad. So then the normal thing there is well, obviously the only way to have sex is to have sex with a man, and you never have sex with a woman. That's what being Bi-sexual is all about...So from that point of view, your mother will be repulsed even though she's a woman, and the normal way to have sex, of course, is with a man, and hence, so you continue to flip from one side of sex to the other.

CORA: But I thought you said the underlying aspect of my sex nature was always already there and already toward my Dad?

THERRY: There are always two sides to it. The trouble comes when both of them are separate and are different.

CORA: Like mine.

THERRY: Yea. `Cause in the average person who--again I hate to use the word `normal'--but, in the normal development, both unite at an early age, and both go the same way.

CORA: Both underlying currents.

THERRY: Yea, right. That's because the image that the child sees, the information that he gains as he grows up, the roles between the two parents are proper, so to speak. Hence, both of them get the same set of messages, and they both unite, become one, and go towards whatever it's supposed to be. Then, at that point, it gets turned into imitation, and then the I.D. begins to grow and, then finally solidifies. In many instances, and you're one of them, that early stage didn't exist. What happened is there was a split because you got conflicting messages. So that the underlying aspects never united. Each took on the different messages, and they each went their own way. In such a case, one always becomes the majority, and the other one always becomes retarded or recessive.

CORA: The majority for me became the one that did to my Dad?

THERRY: Right. And as a result, that became one of the threads that brought you into homosexuality. But you can't say that it is THE thread, because, as I said, it is a fabric; there's more than one thing involved. That was the seed of it.

CORA: So you once said that it was mainly my Dad because of some of the things he did as far as behavior-wise and role modeling, but that's not really true, because with my Mother's absence, the seed that could have gone either way went to him--

THERRY: Well, now you're getting into other threads. Because you have to bear in mind that both parties behaved, and therefore you got messages that are nonverbal from both parties. Over and above the underlying aspects, now you begin talking about other threads that are involved.

CORA: Well, staying back on the underlying thread, what about people from single parent homes? What if you have a child and there's only the mother around, and the child's a boy?

THERRY: Well, the mother is still capable of giving the proper code signals for both of them. If she herself is proper in her coding, then, to a daughter, she will give her daughter an underlying thing that is designed for taking care of it in that she will accept the love and direct it towards imitation, and therefore the child will the get the imitation of the inner feelings that men are certain things and women are certain things etc. etc., and normalcy comes around. Also in the same set of circumstances, if it is a boy child, the mother will again satisfy the underlying thing such that it is not imitation that occurs but transformation. The child will grow up somewhat nebulous up until a certain age, but because the mother is all together, let's say, she's capable of preventing the imitation thing.

CORA: Could he take on other role models of men at some later date?

THERRY: Right. If you notice, when things are right, a young child who is with a mother only, will latch on very very tightly and very hard to a male that they grow to like. And it is from them that the imitation becomes.

CORA: Now what about if it is a father only?

THERRY: Same thing, just in reverse.

CORA: So they can do the same thing?

THERRY: Yea.

CORA: Now, are there always two of those underlying threads, and is one of them always stronger?

THERRY: In the beginning there's always two, one for a male and one for a female. And depending on the message, they either unite and become one and turn into imitation, or they cross and homosexuality and who knows what else develops.

CORA: And I know there are other threads, but is that always--as a pattern, is that always a seed for either Homo- or bisexuality? As a crossing? and all that continuum, the seed is the crossing of that underlying thread?

THERRY: Yes. But you also have to bear in mind that there is a small period in a man and a woman's growth where they go through experimentation. Even though that does relate back to the underlying, it's also a natural process of I.D. formation. Because here they prove themselves and their relative machismo begins there. Their machismo that's in their I.D. system.

CORA: So when you say experimenting, you mean with homosexuality?

THERRY: No, not necessarily. See, at that stage, it can't even be considered homosexuality. It's simply wanting to know if there are others like you, and what are the differences, etc. Boys will get together, and they will play around, masturbate. They'll show one another, see how big I am, see how small I am, or whatever. Women will sometimes come around and see how their breasts are developing, see how their shape is developing, and how they feel when you touch certain things, or what does it feel like if I touch you or if you touch me. All of these things, you know. During this stage, you can't really truly call that homosexuality. It doesn't become homosexuality until it rises to the sexual level.

CORA: Well, and that's another thing. When you say rises to the sexual level, you mean, whether they've been to bed with someone once, whether they've had a year affair with them? I mean, what's the differentiation between experimentation versus being bisexual versus--

THERRY: Well, okay, there are differences between--there are stages of growth, okay? Some of the stages of growth also contain phase where they temporarily take on a role. In some children it is possible that temporarily they take on a homosexual phase where they actually go to bed with one another. But, because it is a phase, they usually grow out of it, and that's the last--you know, it's just part of their growth formation... But, if it is too strongly linked to the underlying, then that phase changes into the chosen lifestyle, and that's what happened to you. `Cause for a long time the child will try to outgrow that phase, but they find that they can't. They find that it doesn't matter what they do they can't get that phase out of the way. And over an extended period of time, depending on how much pain they're determined to experience, eventually they'll take that as their lifestyle. The strange part about it is is that phase can come into you know, various I.D. phases can come in at various ages.

CORA: That's what I was wondering about because, I mean, I know people, they're older that are married that have kids and stuff, that all of a sudden start doing that. They start coming out.

THERRY: Yea. The only reason for that, as I said before, the other side of them is now beginning to catch up.

CORA: I don't understand. That means if a person's been normally heterosexual--

THERRY: That doesn't mean that their entire makeup was what you'd call normal. It could also mean that they too have a subdued side that they never showed to the world. That doesn't mean that they themselves haven't been fighting with it. `Cause let's face it. It's a fact that you're not normal all of your life and then suddenly begin liking men or liking women.

CORA: That's true.

THERRY: It just doesn't happen that way. Therefore, when these things occur, you can pretty well be certain that subjectively, and pretty quietly, they've been dealing with that for a long time. And they've been experiencing feelings for a long long time, and it's just that now they've decided that, well, I'll try it.

CORA: But some of that experimentation, even if it's on a sexual level, it's just a phase?

THERRY: It could be, yea. It could be that they could be having under a certain amount of tension, and they could internally say, well, let's do it and let's get it out, get away with it, get rid of it, throw it away. So they go through the phase. And having gone through the phase, then they evaluate it. Is this better than usual? If they decide, yea, it's a hell of a lot better, then that becomes the new way of life. And if it is not, if it doesn't serve as many rewards, or whatever, then they'll throw it away, or they'll put it in the background.

CORA: If they put it in the background, then they're bisexual?

THERRY: Yea.

CORA: Okay.---I was just going to ask, there's no way really of telling where they're at as far as when they're sexually playing around, or coming out, or not coming out, is there? Or isn't there?

THERRY: You mean is there a way--are you asking me if there's a way that a person can tell for themselves?

CORA: Yea.

THERRY: No. Because they haven't been trained enough to get themselves out of their own way.

CORA: Because, like, as far as bringing people out, which I know I'm not--don't want to do, and I was thinking of a friend of mine that Bill said I should stay away from, and yet, according to everything that I've known by her, she's bisexual. I mean, she's been doing it. She may be confused and she may think men are easier, but um, I decided not to pursue it for other reasons, but as far as evaluating whether she was out or not, she's been in the so-called lifestyle for a couple of years already. Well, she's been out with--that's why I wanted to know what your definition was. She's been out with various women when she was younger; she's been out with one woman various times when she was older; she also goes out with men. She seems to prefer men. She's done the bars and the parties and the this and the that and divorced her husband and all sorts of--I mean, she's taken some steps that, you know, most people wouldn't take if they were experimenting, it seems like.

THERRY: During the experimental phase, you can be so confused that you can make such disastrous decisions that they could ruin your whole life.

CORA: Hum. I didn't think they could really--then I was wrong because I didn't think someone would divorce somebody and do all that other stuff--

THERRY: During that phase, oh yes. They could do things that they could be so sorry for later, when they're over the phase, that they could even commit suicide because of it. Remember, you're dealing with a fabric that is consisting of continuums.

CORA: Well, I was just wondering how you told with people that were bisexual because she's had numerous affairs in the past, then she went for a long time without having any affairs with women, then she started back having affairs with one woman. And now she's with men. I mean, yea, she seems to prefer men. But there are a lot of bisexuals who do. Is it bringing them out to go to bed with them if they prefer men?

THERRY: Well, see, now you're asking for a blanket statement, and there's no way I can give you a blanket statement. The only thing that I can tell you is look at them over time. If over a long period of time, they consistently go back and forth, then it's relatively safe to assume it is their nature. But, if you're looking at this over a relatively short period of time, you don't know; they may be in a phase.

CORA: Yes, I guess unless you can look--I mean, I used to just say, well, if they haven't done it, then you don't do it, but if they've done it once or twice, then it's okay. And then you told me that that's not true.

THERRY: No, it's not, because they may be in a phase, and that's a very dangerous side. As you remember, this other lady who was thinking of suicide's, because she did something.

CORA: Well, it's the same one, but now she says she's comfortable with it and still wants it. Well, that was what she said a while ago; I haven't talked to her since then. I mean, her behavior says she likes men better; she has gotten a boyfriend, but when he's not around I don't know that she won't come around again whether it be to me or some other woman.

THERRY: Yea. So the thing to do, obviously, is to give it more time. Find out if it is phase or if it is becoming her nature. If it becomes her nature to go back and forth, then the only hazard that you have to deal with is the hurt of rejection, and the fear of infection.

CORA: Yea, that's true. I mean, in some ways bisexuals may be healthier mentally, but physically there's a lot more risk.

THERRY: Yea.

CORA:--these days since they're with men, and maybe with different men. If you do something that you know is wrong, saying that, whatever, you're going to accept the consequences. Say, whether knowingly or unknowingly I brought somebody out, so to speak. I know that you use the term angel--

THERRY: Well, there's a difference between if you do it willingly or of you do it unwillingly.

CORA: I mean knowingly or unknowingly.

THERRY: Same difference. If you do something knowingly, then there's a different Karma to it than if you do it unknowingly.

CORA: Okay, if you do it knowingly, and you say something about becoming an angel of darkness, does that mean you serve the dark force for the rest of your life?

THERRY: There's no such thing as anything for the rest of your life.

CORA: Or does that just mean the Karma for that situation. I mean, I guess I had trouble understanding what you meant by `angel of darkness' when you mentioned that.

THERRY: Okay, let's talk about--let's go on a small aside again.

CORA: Okay.

THERRY: Talk about the difference between light and darkness. What is light and what is darkness?

CORA: Well, from my previous understanding, light would mean serving the All, and darkness would mean serving yourself.

THERRY: Okay, let's go into a little bit more of it. Let's look at it from the point of view of Arkasheans.

CORA: Light would be-- When you were saying that the so-called darkness can use the five emotions against you as well as your body and stuff to keep you more trapped in Earth, that was the description I guess that Dante used and that Indians used, India Indians, about looking at various things, and if you have a strong emotion you're brought back down to the Earth level. That's the same thing they were saying right? Okay, go ahead.

THERRY: You're giving me definitions. What is light, what is dark?

CORA: Okay light was serving the all, or going away from Earth, and dark was serving yourself, or going more towards Earth, getting more trapped in Maya.

THERRY: Okay, does that have anything to do with good and bad?

CORA: No.

THERRY: Does that have anything to do with good and evil?

CORA: No.

THERRY: Okay, make sure we stay on that point.

CORA: And it doesn't have anything to do with right and wrong?

THERRY: Does it?

CORA: Well, right and wrong is in relation to reference points.

THERRY: Bingo. What reference points are we talking about?

CORA: So, yeah, it would be right and wrong. Well, the reference points of light being away from Earth, that would be the right in that sense, right?

THERRY: Isn't that depending on the point of view you want to take at that time?

CORA: Yeah, I guess we haven't defined goals. Okay, so there would be no right and wrong, no good and bad, no good and evil, and no right and wrong.

THERRY: Okay. Now then, what was the original question?

CORA: What angel of Darkness meant, and whether if you did something that was a dark act, and you acted as an angel of Darkness, does that mean you're an angel of Darkness for the rest of your life?

THERRY: Okay. If you drop a dish and break it, does that mean now for the rest of your life you're going to drop dishes and break `em?

CORA: No.

THERRY: Okay, if you go out and find yourself virgin and have sex with her, does that mean that's what you're going to do for the rest of your life?

CORA: No.

THERRY: You hate somebody. Does that mean you're going to hate them for the rest of your life?

CORA: No.

THERRY: Then why should it be any different for anything else?

CORA: So even if you intentionally do something knowing it's wrong because you want it and don't care what the price is, it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to do the same thing for the rest of your life?

THERRY: No, but it doesn't stop you from doing it for the rest of your life.

CORA: No, and you get Karma for it.

THERRY: Right.

CORA: But you're not necessarily always going to be bringing people down and trapping them just because you did it once.

THERRY: Correct. But what does it mean?

CORA: Well, it means that you've added more pain to yourself; you've guaranteed yourself that you'd get trapped again another life. Of course, if you're in a trap, doesn't that guarantee that anyway? `Cause you're going to have the same feelings and same--

THERRY: What about the condition that the person you brought in was not in a trap and was brought in a trap?

CORA: I was going to--yeah, that was a question I had. Are you responsible for all the pain that somebody has?

THERRY: Yes.

CORA: For their whole life if you introduce them to something?

THERRY: Yes.

CORA: You are. I wondered about that.

THERRY: So, have you not guaranteed that at some point in time you will have escaped your trap and somebody will bring you back in?

CORA: Hum, that was something I hadn't thought of. I guess that's a possibility, or is that the Karma for it? Yes, it is?

THERRY: That's the Karma for the deed that you did. Bringing somebody in, somebody will bring you in. Remember, each minute of every single day is important, not because of your emotions and your experiences, but because each behavior, each thought, each everything does three things at one time. Remember what they are?

CORA: It takes care of the needs of the situation, it ratifies the past, and it makes the future.

THERRY: Right. So, if you bring somebody in to life, what does what does that mean in terms of that?

CORA: I guess you're setting yourself up for that again. And it's not just when you're trapped they'll bring you in again, it means once you've beaten it so you're not in it that it brings you in. `Cause I thought it just meant that they'd bring you in when you were already trapped anyway, and that's just your Karma, but that's not how it works.

THERRY: If you are already gay, how can somebody make you gay?

CORA: Oh, so the act doesn't matter; it's just what's inside you.

THERRY: Exactly. The deed here is if you bring somebody in, that means at some point you will not be in, but you will be brought back in. So at some point you will have escaped your trap, but you will fall right back into the trap because somebody will bring you in.

CORA: Seems to me you're still in the trap; you're not completely out of the trap if it's that strong in you that you want to do it in the first place.

THERRY: What happens if you're just going through a phase and you're confused and you don't know, and because of the pain of the situation you get caught.

CORA: I guess that's an aspect I hadn't thought of. I figured if you weren't really gay, then even if it's a phase then you would just go through the phase and get out `cause it's not really-it wasn't in you. It wasn't that strong. That's not how it works?

THERRY: But when somebody brings you in that means they change the set of circumstances, don't they?

CORA: Yeah, I guess they could use love or something so you'd stay there such that you'd train yourself enough to want that when they leave. And what was your definition of trap?

THERRY: Something you can't get out of by yourself.

CORA: So that means Maya's a trap, bodies are a trap, eating is a trap and having to repeat it. But there are certain traps that are with the original game of Maya, and there are certain traps that have more baggage?

THERRY: What you're saying is there are traps on all levels.

CORA: Is that true? There are?

THERRY: What's more, there are traps within traps within traps within traps, etc., etc., etc. for each thread of Maya. That's why there is a road that mortal man may not walk alone.

CORA: When you say bringing somebody into a trap, then are there certain traps that are acceptable and certain ones that are not acceptable? Like, for instance, a female screwing a virgin male. If I went and broke some guys virginity because--

THERRY: Since when is a trap acceptable?

CORA: Well, then that means--well, doesn't it depend on the level you're looking at?

THERRY: Yep.

CORA: Okay, for instance, from Earth, because you talked about traps of being gay, and that it was not a good thing to bring somebody into a trap, but I asked you about breaking some guy's virginity, and you said that was normal because that was part of the regular trap of Maya. And I was discussing that with Bill, and he said that the difference was more baggage, and I guess that's the traps within the traps that you're talking about, because a guy--if I go screw a guy who's a virgin, well I've brought him into the trap of sex, right?

THERRY: No.

CORA: I haven't? Oh you said `cause he'd experience it anyway because that was just Earth.

THERRY: Right.

CORA: But he's still getting trapped in it.

THERRY: He did that when he came to Earth.

CORA: What about guys that are monks that never screw at all in their whole life?

THERRY: I don't think they exist.

CORA: No? That's just fiction? I've heard that they exist. Well, anyway, I don't want to lose my point. For a heterosexual guy who's brought into sex, and virginity's broken, he's not going to go and get his head bashed in and get hate and resentment, and all that stuff, or want to commit suicide `cause he had sex with someone. But if a person's gay, or bisexual, and they try something that they still feel is unacceptable, all that other feelings that I've run into in the so-called gay world, that's the trap part that's different, it just means extra baggage and it's harder to get out of because of the traps within traps could trap them more. I mean, hatred and anger and resentment and all that stuff can build and build so that they're stuck there more in different kinds of cycles within that trap, is that what you mean?

THERRY: Among those things you forgot an important one. Acceptability. And your answer is yes.

CORA: And that's the reason it's not wrong, but it's more of a trap--

THERRY: Yes.

CORA:--because it's on the continuum?

THERRY: Yes.

CORA: And so if society accepted it for whatever reason. Say, it was a different kind of society, or Arkashean society, or whatever, then it would still--

THERRY: The trap would be equal.

CORA: It would be equal? Even without some of the sacraments that heterosexuality has, it's still--

THERRY: Yes.

CORA: So it wouldn't be any worse to be gay then to be straight?

THERRY: No.

CORA: Wow, and that's all because of the acceptability, `cause that brings all the other fabric strands?

THERRY: Yeah.

CORA: Because of all--like committing suicide, and the this and the that because they can't--wow. So that's why the Universe always says that it's not wrong but there's more pain.

THERRY: Yes.

CORA: And I, for all my life, internally always thought that it was wrong, but I guess it's really, understanding that--

THERRY: Well, it's wrong depending on your point of view.

CORA: Well, okay.

THERRY: It's wrong depending on--remember, the words right and wrong are useless unless you're using a gage.

CORA: Okay, but if you're using the gage of the trap of Maya, they're both, they would both--

THERRY: Then sex, period, is wrong.

CORA: It is wrong if you're using the gage of the trap of Maya? How?

THERRY: If you close the door there can be no entrance.

CORA: Ahh, so there'd be no more entrapment. That was my next thing, but I guess it doesn't--my next question was going to be, and I've been thinking about this a lot, if you didn't want to bring anybody into the trap of Maya, into any traps, not just being gay, then I guess you wouldn't have a baby, but that's not- Because you could still trap people by their emotions as well as by their bodies, so if they love you, that can be a trap to get them back to Earth.

THERRY: Yeah.

CORA: So, therefore, it's ridiculous to say you're never going to trap anybody in anything. It just makes no sense for this level. There are certain traps that are--

THERRY: It makes no sense for any level.

CORA: Oh really? Oh, `cause there are traps--

THERRY: You have to remember the law: In order to come to Earth, you must abide by the Alliance of the Rule. And the Alliance of the Rule says, if you're going to come to Earth, you must play games. They don't care which game you play, but you have to play a game, and all games are traps.

CORA: So I was looking at traps as this big horrible thing, but that's not--

THERRY: That depends on who's point of view. Somebody's having sex, and they're really enjoying it, I don't think they'd say it's such a terrible thing. Somebody's who's being robbed and all of their life savings is going away before their eyes, now they might have a different point of view of it.

CORA: And if you added acceptability to the gay experience, so to speak, the trap would be equal to the heterosexual trap?

THERRY: The reason why it would be equal, is because it would be on the same level.

CORA: Different pains and different pleasures for each different lifestyle; obviously you can't have children with one.

THERRY: Right.

CORA: But you said you can replace certain emptiness with spirituality and stuff so that they can be more content individuals?

THERRY: Right. Therefore it makes it on the same level. It makes it on the same karmic level; the same level of Earth. It makes it also on the same layer of Earth.

CORA: And in that situation, it wouldn't be such a karmic crime, so to speak, to screw someone who hadn't been screwed before, that was the same sex? It wouldn't matter as much?

THERRY: It's one thing to play around on your own level, something else to entice people to change levels.

CORA: Well, if they both be made equal, then how come it would be enticing them to change levels?

THERRY: It is equal, but what you're saying is that you would rob them of the possibility or the chance of experiencing child birth. Now if somebody had already had that experience, and knows what they need to know, or knows what they can experience in the normal vein of things, now they could be brought to the other side and everything would be alright; there would be nothing wrong with it because they've lost nothing from the experience.

CORA: Hum, it wouldn't have any more intense Karma of trapping them into anything that was different.

THERRY: No. Because they've been robbed of nothing. Because they've already loved, they've already bore children, they've already raised children, they're already loved children, they already see grandchildren, you know, the whole bit, so there's nothing more they can get out of that side, so they experience the other side, it's no big deal.

CORA: Is each trap on each level specific to that level?

THERRY: Yes.

CORA: Well, that clears up some misunderstanding that I've had for a couple of weeks. So as far as working on being more honest, I mean it's just best to try to be more honest and not rationalize, and just if I want to do something, and I insist on doing it, to just do it.

THERRY: As a way of life, yes.

CORA: And that gives you more security and honesty upstairs so that you can discern different things easier?

THERRY: Yes. It goes back to the old saying that people use. If you can't take the time, don't do the crime.

CORA: I've got another question as far as my chain goes. Um--

THERRY: We won't talk about chains.

CORA: Can I ask you about wearing jewelry? See, this situation came up--

THERRY: You already know the answer.

CORA: No, this was--

THERRY: You already know the answer where chains and jewelry is concerned.

CORA: Is a tie-pin considered jewelry?

THERRY: Yes.

CORA: It is. Okay. Can I validate my understanding of what it is then? If I take off my chain I can wear other jewelry?

THERRY: Yeah, you can do anything you want.

CORA: Well, but I mean, as far as--that was what I understood as my limitation for my last one.

THERRY: Okay, let me ask you another question. If you take off your chain, what in fact do you do?

CORA: I thought I just took off my chain since I still have everything else? No?

THERRY: Aren't you in fact saying, these values have to be set aside because I want to do these.

CORA: That's not a way I'd ever looked at it. It came up during the wedding, and that's why I'm asking. So, am I supposed to wear this all the time?

THERRY: You're asking me how you should live your life?

CORA: Oh, okay, well, okay. Let's put that another way. Is it saying that these values should be put aside till I take this off for massage? Or is that a different situation? Okay, and so, the Symbology of taking this off to put on other jewelry is putting off my values?

THERRY: Isn't it? You tell me. Remember Maat when you answer.

CORA: All I can tell you is what I did. I put on a tie pin--

THERRY: I'm not asking you what you did, I'm asking you on patterns and values, what is it that's happening. I'm not interested in what you did; that's your affair, not mine. I'm only interested in truth. Since you're talking symbolically, let's stay symbolic and let's look at truth. Are you in fact saying I'll set these values aside because they conflict with other values, and I want them more than I want this.

CORA: Could be looked at--I, well, I wasn't continuously looking at it that way, but I guess it could be.

THERRY: Again, can you see yourself rationalizing right now? I've already told you that I didn't care what you did, but you insist on telling me what it is that you did.

CORA: No, I'm really trying, I, well, my inner voice says yes, but I really didn't think about it that way.

THERRY: Why does your inner voice say yes?

CORA: Because I chose this chain to wear with honor as a symbol of something I represent.

THERRY: Do you find some inconsistency between you saying yes, but at the same time saying you're taking it off and putting jewelry simply because this set of values won't allow you to wear jewelry, but you want jewelry so you're going to take it off? Do you find that there's some inconsistency in saying well, since you won't let me do what I want to do, the hell with you, I'll take it off? Does that answer your question?

CORA: Um-hum. And you said jewelry represented--

THERRY: And what has that to do with Maat?

CORA: What does what to do with Maat?

THERRY: What you're doing. The whole shpeel we just went through. What has that to do with Maat? And rationalization.

CORA: Well, it means that I rationalize.

THERRY: Okay. Wouldn't it be better to simply come right out and say, hey, I want to wear jewelry, so temporarily I'm going to set you aside. Wouldn't that be a whole lot better?

CORA: Yeah, and I started to do that but it didn't feel right so I took the jewelry off. Well, it came up because I wasn't sure if a tie-pin was jewelry, was what it was.

THERRY: It is. The only thing that you can wear with it is a wrist watch. And the only reason why you can wear a wrist watch is because it's not a vanity thing; it's not designed to make your physical body look more appealing. It's designed as a function for you to know what the hell time it is.

CORA: Well I remember you said you could wear stuff that served a function, and at the time it was a watch, and I had a tie that had two pieces and they didn't stay together, so I had a tie clip and I put it on and then I wasn't sure if I could wear it with my chain, so I was going to take my chain off, and then I decided--I remembered what you said about a situation that would be subtle that would be shoulds versus wants, and I said well, I want to wear the tie clip so I was going to take my chain off, but I wasn't sure if that was quite the right decision since even--

THERRY: Can you see that all of this is dealing with Maat and your rationalization?

CORA: Yeah. Well, I knew what I wanted to do, it was just a question of what was the trade-off--

THERRY: That's not the point.

CORA: What would be the price of the want.

THERRY: A lost of power... but that's not the point. The point is to the degree that you have Maat solidly within you, remember?

CORA: To that degree will you know what to do?

THERRY: If you find yourself in a condition, or in a situation where you're not sure, such as when I came to you in a black robe on another reality, how did you know what to believe and what not to believe?

CORA: Well, I have enough control to take myself from the experience, so that's what I did because I wasn't sure that it was you, and not some other dark kind of person that was trying to show me something.

THERRY: But the point is you didn't know what to do.

CORA: That's true. I did, well, I went on previous--

THERRY: You know why?

CORA: Because I'm not usually honest enough with myself.

THERRY: Exactly, and the things that we've been talking today are indications and are examples of how you play with Maat.

CORA: Well, I know I mis-communicate with myself a lot, and I'm trying not to do that as much. I ended up taking off the thing and pinning the tie things together--

THERRY: Do you know why it is important for you to have every little tiny victory?

CORA: Because they govern automatic pilot?

THERRY: Yeah, but that's not the only reason.

CORA: That's the only reason I'm aware of; training--

THERRY: What about the process that each time you do something wrong, it is true that you suffer the guilt for it, but what about the fact that each time you do it it becomes easier to do it. Until finally you're rationalizing yourself right out of reality.

CORA: The first step. That's why it's best not to--even if you're honest about it, that's why it's best not to do it.

THERRY: Right.

CORA: `Cause it get easier to do things that you shouldn't do.

THERRY: Right, and because it gets easier to do things, it also becomes easier to rationalize.

CORA: Even if you don't rationalize and say you're just doing it because you want to?

THERRY: Yes.

CORA: How would rationalizing be a pattern of doing things wrong if you just say, if you don't rationalize--

THERRY: It's a case of how far will you go to get what you want.

CORA: Um, a couple more things. Silver is for women, in our tradition, and gold is for men.

THERRY: That's not necessarily true.

CORA: No?

THERRY: That depends on the level you're at.

CORA: Ah, okay, `cause you once told me that silver-well, that applied to this level-silver was for females. Does our tradition also recognize the moon as a symbol for female?

THERRY: The moon can also be for men as well as for women. In our system there is no chauvinism. There's simply aspects of life, the continuum of the life force.

CORA: So the sun would be for aspects of male?

THERRY: As well as aspects of female.

CORA: Oh really? Hum.

THERRY: Like I said, there is no chauvinism in our system. There's no such thing as males or females; they just don't exist. They are simply points along the continuum of the life force. First of all, I don't think I've ever met a true male, and I don't think I've ever met a true female.

CORA: `Cause they all have parts of each other in them?

THERRY: Yes.

CORA: So depending on what you're working with would be what you'd use? Whether a sun or a moon, or gold or silver?

THERRY: Yes, as well as other metals. Some people wouldn't use metals at all; they'd use crystals instead.

CORA: And crystals would also be for both sexes.

THERRY: Yeah.

CORA: And depending on what you're working on--

THERRY: Again, throw away this word sexes. They don't exist in our system of power. The only thing that exists is a point along the continuum of the sexual vein.

CORA: I was reading this book, and part of it had stuff that we believe in too, and she was saying that true witches got concerned--got mixed up with paganism and neo-paganism when the church persecuted all the witches and massed everything together, and all their beliefs got mixed up. The ones that even survived, `cause a lot of their wisdom got burnt. Is that true?

THERRY: If you listen to what's out there, you can find anything.

CORA: Well, the thing was a lot of it sounded accurate which is why I'm asking you. And one--

THERRY: Like I said, you'll find anything out there. And all of it, in its own way, is valid within its own boundaries. I mean, it's like asking, is blue really better than brown? Well obviously, if you are partial to blue, you're going to say yes. The other guy's partial to brown, he's going to say yes. Likewise, if you're studying history, if the facts themselves are so clouded that there's no real way for sure you can tell what happened, then again, it could be blue or brown.

CORA: Alright, well then, I'll ask you from our point of view.

THERRY: From our point of view we accepted those systems are there; we accept the fact that they are valid for the people who follow them, but we have a different way. We're not saying that one is better than another, we're not saying one is good and one is bad, we're simply saying they are different, they serve different needs, they serve different purposes. The fact that ours is much older and usually works far better for us is beside the point.

CORA: Okay, now we believe, as far as the concepts of deity go, we believe in the Great Force, something that powers everything, one great Force, and that that Great Force has aspects of masculine and feminine.

THERRY: No.

CORA: Well, maybe that's not the right way to say it, but--

THERRY: Masculinity and femininity doesn't even exist on that level.

CORA: Oh, okay, that's true.

THERRY: On that level there is nothing but force. Differences doesn't even begin to exist until you come way down into Orthodontiks when the first thought came into being. Until the law "That which exists shall be dual in its nature but triune its nature" comes into effect.

CORA: But we acknowledge nurturing and active powers.

THERRY: Okay, but that's got nothing to do with males and females.

CORA: Okay, right, okay. And we--

THERRY: That has to do with jobs, tasks that you have to perform. Obviously, if you're going to cut through something, you're not going to go out looking for a hammer, `cause a hammer's designed to pound a nail in, not designed to cut a piece of wood. But if you want to go bash somebody's skull in, well, you might look for a hammer, but a building would be a whole lot better.

CORA: And the active and passive forces are made physical in male and female to do the process of--

THERRY: No, you're thinking wrong.

CORA: Okay.

THERRY: You have to think in terms of the descent. In terms of a continuum. You have to think in terms of how a continuum is formed. Remember what the law is?

CORA: I'm not sure which one you--

THERRY: Of a continuum. Okay, a continuum is matter or a state is used, then it's changed so minutely that you can hardly tell the difference between them, then it's used again. Then it's changed again so minutely that you can't tell the difference practically, and it keeps on and it keeps on so that if you look at two points that are very close together you can't tell any difference between them, but if you look at points that are far apart, there are vast differences.

CORA: Okay.

THERRY: That's the way creation is made.

CORA: And we also--we use the so-called masculine and the so-called feminine for different jobs--

THERRY: For the opposite ends of a continuum.

CORA: Also for different functions, right? You once told me that you use sometimes one and sometimes another. And now also, we also believe that there's an aspect of the Great Force within everything, right? Every physical manifestation?

THERRY: All things that are are an aspect. Nothing is that is not from the Great Force.

CORA: Does that mean that part of the Great Force is in everything? I mean, could you say that--

THERRY: You're playing with semantics, so let me go down to semantics. If we have a pail of water, and let's represent that pail of water as the Great Force. Then you have an untold number of thimbles, and you fill up those thimbles from this pail of water. And it doesn't matter how many thimbles you fill up, that level of water never goes down. And it doesn't matter how many you put back in, that water never raises; it's just constant all the time. Now then, with all of these thimbles lying around, are they part of that uh--

CORA: Yes.

THERRY: That's your answer. Would you say that every one of those thimbles contains a little bit of the Great Force?

CORA: Um-hum.

THERRY: That's your answer.

CORA: `Cause this book was saying that those belief systems was what the original witches believed. I don't know if she was talking about Arkasheans or what, she never specified; she just said witches, and she said that they were confused with pagans because they believed that there was a force or an energy from God or the Great Force in everything, and that a lot of people took that to mean that every little spirit had its own god, and that's where it got confused, and that, because of that, witches weren't necessarily pagans; they were witches. Pagans were a separate kind of religion. Is that accurate?

THERRY: That was a point of view from some people. But you can't say, that's it, that's the truth. It's the truth for some people. Remember, truth is relative. It depends on who it is you're asking. Obviously if you look at someone who happens to believe in that chronologically and things, then for them, obviously, it's truth, but if somebody has a different idea, then to them it's not truth. Who's going to say what's the difference between the two? Until you find a definitive where everybody accepts that's the source, then how can you really find what truth is?

CORA: Well, have you written any books or anything of that kind of history where chronological events like that were things?

THERRY: Why would I want to? And just because I wrote it, what makes you think that would be truth? Truth is relative. Wouldn't you in fact only get my version of it? You see what I mean?

CORA: Well, then how do you find accuracy in things like that kind of information? Occult kind of information?

THERRY: The information is unimportant.

CORA: Well, I would think it would be important.

THERRY: No, because the stuff you're talking about is only veneer. Who cares where truth really comes from. If you have a piece of information that you know absolutely Universally it is truth simply because you can see the patterns functioning in reality, and in nature, who cares where you get it? Does it matter if you got it from a so-called witch or from a drunkard, or if you got it from an ant, or somebody who stole your wife and ran away with your children? Who cares? Truth is truth is truth.

CORA: So that kind of stuff, the history, you just can't ever figure out because you weren't there?

THERRY: No, you take it all with a grain of salt, you take it all with the understanding of the times that exist, the situation that exist, and man's proness towards trying to gain power. So it doesn't matter if the subject of study is a religion, or if it is a political regime, or if it was a small town combat, or if it's just an individual's strive for power. You take it all with a grain of salt. Try to understand everything that is involved, and try to see things from the point of view of what was happening at that time rather from today's point of view, and that will give you a better chance of seeing things.

CORA: Did they still have magic in the 16th and 15th centuries when they burned witches? You said that was the last thing mankind lost, and now he just has pain and patience.

THERRY: Give me a definition, because magic still exists today.

CORA: So what was the aspect of it that was lost then?

THERRY: Give me a definition of magic.

CORA: My definition would be the conjuring up of, well, being--

THERRY: You mean the breaking of seeming natural law?

CORA: No, you'd be following natural law. I guess--

THERRY: Listen to my words. Seeming to break natural law.

CORA: Oh, okay.

THERRY: Haven't you seen that?

CORA: Yeah. So then what aspect did they lose?

THERRY: Where and how have you seen that?

CORA: Okay, I take that back. Well, no, okay, when you moved your head off your shoulders.

THERRY: Okay, but don't look--outside of me.

CORA: Outside of you, no, I haven't ever seen it.

THERRY: That's where people lost it.

CORA: So that is the aspect that they lost.

THERRY: They lost the contact with law. And they went far more into greater reality, and as a result of that, their ability to understand law, as it's written by the Great Force, and they interchanged their own concept of law, their own beliefs, and they get caught in their emotions, and what does emotions do?

CORA: Amplifies and distorts.

THERRY: So, if you want to make a cake, and you distort your recipe, are you going to have a cake?

CORA: No.

THERRY: Won't you lose the power to make a cake? That's how they lost.

CORA: So those of us that are learning law are still in touch with what you'd call magic.

THERRY: Well, now that depends on again how you're using the term magic.

CORA: Were you defining magic as the contact with law, and the ability to understand it?

THERRY: Yeah, I define magic as the ability to possess an unusual knowledge of law. The key, the operative here is unusual, meaning that it's excessively far beyond the average individual.

CORA: Meaning illusions are the driving force for reality, for instance, all the subtle levels you've been showing me over the years. So that I can now see different things about reality that other people can't which raises the awareness factor.

THERRY: So to you, do you find that magic?

CORA: No.

THERRY: But to the other people who don't know, don't they see that as magic, wondrous?

CORA: If used certain ways, yeah, you could, because you get to be able to manipulate reality if you learn well enough.

THERRY: Exactly.

CORA: Now there are things you can do in interacting with regular everyday people--say I want to get laid, for instance. If I just use the thing of flirting with someone and using the regular behaviors that everyone else uses, that's acceptable, right?

THERRY: Yes.

CORA: I mean, that is a manipulation in the sense that everyone manipulates reality in some sense, but it's not using all the stuff that I know in order to do it, is it?

THERRY: Correct.

CORA: Because you do have--or me being in the Hoblet, and living in the outside world, I do have to interact in the world.

THERRY: Yes, but you also have a greater responsibility.

CORA: Right.

THERRY: And it's far easier for you to trap yourself.

CORA: That's true.

THERRY: Because of the--again, I don't really like using the word because of the bad implication the world has to it, but because of the magic that we have taught you, you can do things out there that other people cannot, and therefore you have a greater responsibility.

Note: the next session (018) continues this conversation