Arkashean Q&A Session -- 069

SHELLY: I just recently realized today that it was the same; that that pattern existed. That I was seeing a lot of things, and didn't really understand them, and that that was what most people did here, and until people here have some sort of guide, that's what most people do. I'm just now doing it on another level.

THERRY: Yea, supposedly that's what religion is supposed to do on this level--

SHELLY: Really?

THERRY: But obviously it's falling far short.

SHELLY: I didn't know--well yea, I guess you're right; I guess that was the intent.

THERRY: Religion is supposed to teach you the laws of creation. But I guess it fell a little bit short of its mark.

SHELLY: How can it do that; it doesn't know `em (laughter) for the most part.

THERRY: Well, I think you can lay that at the feet of the preacher.

SHELLY: Preachers are false gods.

THERRY: Yea, I suppose they do serve that role.

SHELLY: `Course that was a blanket statement. I should say my perception of most preachers.

THERRY: That would be a little more accurate.

SHELLY: So how do you keep a stable core and still be open to learning and changing growth.

THERRY: Well, this is a circus, isn't it? Learn to be a juggler. After all, you are dealing with a fabric.

SHELLY: That's true. But when you have a reference point, say academically, like a theory, like I asked you before; you never really addressed that, I didn't think anyway. Um, and then--

THERRY: Your theories have to be based on something.

SHELLY: Well, maybe they're based on assumptions.

THERRY: So perhaps you're assuming a connection between--

SHELLY: Two things that aren't--oh, go ahead.

THERRY --various threads.


THERRY: And perhaps somewhere along the line you meant to pick one thread, but in turn you picked another.

SHELLY: Yea, that's all possible.

THERRY: Isn't that called miscommunication?

SHELLY: On one level, yea.

THERRY: Oh, okay.

SHELLY: But also you need to make observations about your world.

THERRY: Without jumping to conclusions, I hope.

SHELLY: Yes. That's true.

THERRY: That's easier said then done though, isn't it.

SHELLY: That's true too.

THERRY: I guess it all gets into your habits.

SHELLY: Well some things appear to be true, and then maybe they're not, or maybe you're just missing information, and then they're not when you get the information.

THERRY: Or maybe you're corrupting the other respective levels.

SHELLY: Maybe.

THERRY: Just because something is true on one level, that doesn't mean it's true on all levels.

SHELLY: That's true; or maybe you're just missing information. It's like I observed my theories of touch from the responses I got from the people I was interacting with when I gave them massages-

THERRY: Um-hum.

SHELLY: and I was missing information because I thought it was their body and not their emotions--


SHELLY: --so I based--

THERRY: Perhaps you went into it with a biased view.

SHELLY: I took that into account. It was totally possible that I went in with a biased view.


SHELLY: But it's still--

THERRY: You know why I say a biased view? Because you didn't take into account the amount of touch the body was already getting.

SHELLY: Mmmm, that's not true, so I guess I miscommunicated, because I did consider that. I--

THERRY: How can you, how can you make the conclusion the body will respond to touch if you massage her--in other words, the only massage that counts is the massage you give--

SHELLY: No, that's not true.

THERRY: --because all the other touches also massage.

SHELLY: No, that's not true either.

THERRY: Sure they do.

SHELLY: Um-um. Number one, most of them don't. I'm the only one that's done this, but number two--

THERRY: You mean their clothes doesn't massage their body?

SHELLY: That's not massage. That's touch.

THERRY: The hell it is. It's massage, it's touch, it's contact.

SHELLY: It is contact.

THERRY: That's all massage is is contact via movement.


THERRY: The only basic difference is you have a mind and emotions that go along with it, that's the only thing that's missing.

SHELLY: Ah, you also have pressure and variance of pressures, and muscle manipulation.

THERRY: I don't think you'll be able to get much more pressure than her body laying against her mattresses and her chairs.

SHELLY: That's true, but that's--okay, in the strict definition you're right.

THERRY: The point is, if it were strictly touch, she's already getting it. And if it ain't working, then there has to be something extra.

SHELLY: You're very good. Because I assumed in my equation, I attached touch to purpose without ever telling myself that I did that, because I did take into account that other people--

THERRY: Perhaps your language sucks.

SHELLY: Yes it does, but I'm not sure that anyone else would have seen that either. I did take into account that other people touch her for her care. I did not take into account that the touch of clothing or her mattress is still communicated as touch to her skin, but I still did take into account that other people do touch her; physical therapy, changing her, cathing her, turning her, all that stuff, and I did take that into account, and I did realize that there was something missing, but I did not communicate it the way you did, attached to purpose, and that that would have a different meaning. Now does that have a different meaning just to the body? or--

THERRY: Yes, because remember, each human being has three minds.

SHELLY: Three minds.

THERRY: Yes, three sources or storage places for memory.

SHELLY: Which are what?

THERRY: Well, that's not the purpose of our discussion. It's not for me to teach you anatomy.

SHELLY: Well, I never learned that in anatomy.

THERRY: I know because they don't know about it. They too, have blinders on in their thinking.

SHELLY: But my question was does it have a different meaning for the body, and you said yes.


SHELLY: Before you--

THERRY: If somebody takes your pulse, as opposed to a lover grabbing you and doing the same movement, isn't that a different thing to the body?

SHELLY: Yea. But isn't--So if you say that it's, the body knows, is that because the mind interprets it as being different?

THERRY: Because there are different ways of touching. You can touch physically, you can touch emotionally, you can touch sociologically, you can touch mentally, and you can touch lovingly. They're all valid different levels of touching. And, more important, you can touch magnetically.

SHELLY: And does the body, a living body but independent of the mind, like if somebody's--well, you couldn't even do that; the mind and the body are connected too much to do that.


SHELLY: See, I was wondering if it was just actual cells of the body. I read that--

THERRY: Yes it--

SHELLY: It is the cells of the body.

THERRY: One level of the mind is the cellular level.

SHELLY: Because there was a woman--

THERRY: See, science don't recognize that. Science recognize that the cellular level is nothing but chemical.

SHELLY: That's not true.

THERRY: That's not valid. The human body is not unlike a hologram in that each cell has the picture of the whole.

SHELLY: So if that's true, then you should be able to bypass certain things, and get other things to compensate and work again.


SHELLY: See, I'm taking this from an article I read on a woman that had the theory that movement was culturally imposed, and you once said you agreed with that when I said that before.


SHELLY: And she had some alter-reality experience, and came back able to heal people to a degree.


SHELLY: And she also started a new movement school where her theory was that cells have minds--


SHELLY: --and that the mind of her hands and cells especially, the minds of her cells could contact the minds of cells in other people's bodies, and communicate with them and teach them to move again.


SHELLY: And that's valid.


SHELLY: She said--

THERRY: What's more, the mind of one person's cell can contact the mind of another person's cell, and have that other cell send out new growth such that nerve can send out new tendons to reconnect itself.

SHELLY: Hum. Because she has supposedly healed some people to the point of walking that were paralyzed by polio.

THERRY: Yea, it is even possible for the cells to regenerate and reproduce a cut-off arm or a cut-off leg. It's just that man, in his arrogance, has locked off, and therefore lost, much of his real power.

SHELLY: If you be--does it take both of you believing that for that to happen, or just one?

THERRY: Just one. Obviously if one disbelieves, and one believes, the disbelief will pair against the belief and whoever is the strongest will win out, because you are talking about magnetic forces. And magnetic forces can be rerouted rather easily.

SHELLY: Is it okay for me to ask my chain to come through me and heal people when I'm working with them?

THERRY: Sure. But don't try to override Karma--

SHELLY: I usually say if--

THERRY: `Cause you'll only cause harm.

SHELLY: I usually say if it's the Universe's will, or if the Universe will allow it.


SHELLY: I don't always like saying if it's within the person's Karma, because it's within their Karma to get sick, so if I'm trying to help them--

THERRY: Are you playing a little bit of God right now?

SHELLY: No, but I'm asking you about something.

THERRY: Aren't you playing a little bit of God right now?

SHELLY: How so?

THERRY: With the thought pattern that you don't want to say if it's within Karmic, because it's also within their Karma to get sick and you don't want them to get sick. Isn't that a little bit of God right now? You're refusing them the right to be sick?


THERRY: No? Then what are you curing? Or what are you hoping to cure? If it's not their free will?

SHELLY: Their sickness. But, okay, but what I'm wondering is--

THERRY: If it is their free will to get sick, and they chose to, who the hell are you to deny them their rights?

SHELLY: Well, that's true.

THERRY: Hence, my question. Aren't you playing a little bit of God?

SHELLY: Okay, well then I've got a question. When you--when someone's sick and other people pray, and they pray for that person to get well.

THERRY: They usually pray for themselves.

SHELLY: Well, okay. The rare person that prays for the person to get well not for their own gain, for that person to come meet a role in their life. Okay? But they genuinely want them to get well.


SHELLY: Wouldn't--Isn't that asking say God, or the Universe to help that person, I wouldn't say regardless of their Karma, but isn't almost asking them to override Karma? I mean when you--when someone's sick, that's their Karma. If you're asking them to get well, or if you're asking the Universe to help them get well--

THERRY: Perhaps they are automatically assuming that it is not the individual's free will, and that what has occurred is beyond the individual's abilities. And perhaps they are simply saying, give the individual the ability to heal themselves.

SHELLY: I guess the part, If it is within their Karma, when you're talking about praying for someone to get well, just seems odd because, obviously if it was in their Karma for them to get well on their own, they would have already. That's what I was trying to say.

THERRY: Providing, of course they have that freedom.

SHELLY: But if they don't, what good does a prayer do if you say, if it is within their Karma?

THERRY: Well, let me ask you the same question in a different way. If it is within their Karmic illusion to be what they are, what good is prayer, period?

SHELLY: Okay, so are you saying--

THERRY: Are you perhaps trying to redefine the definition of Predestiny?

SHELLY: No, I'm trying to understand something. See, when I ask, when I say if it's, if the Universe will allow it, I guess I feel like that gives a person more leeway then saying, if it's within their Karma. Is that erroneous? Are they both equal?

THERRY: They're both equal. If the Universe will allow it, that means that it's within law, and law in this case happens to be Karmic illusion.

SHELLY: So then everybody who's ever been healed by a psychic healer, it's because it's been in law.

THERRY: Within their Karma, uh-huh.

SHELLY: To be healed.

THERRY: Uh-huh. The majority of the time, anyone who has been healed by a psychic healer, they have in fact healed themselves, and have simply used the so-called psychic as a medium to concentrate their own thoughts. Because the claim to uniqueness says nobody can do anything for you; you've got to do it for yourself.

SHELLY: I'm glad you said that because I wondered how it worked. I believe that people heal themselves.

THERRY: Yes, they do.

SHELLY: And I believe though, that when someone's like a psychic healer helps heal someone, you're kinda like a co-healer.

THERRY: No you ain't; you're just playing a pawn. The psychic healer is nothing more than a pawn to help the other person focus their own belief systems.

SHELLY: Well how do they do that? What if they don't ever talk to you? Then how are they focusing their own belief systems?

THERRY: That's the power of illusion. That's the difference between that which is real and that which is illusion.

SHELLY: If someone came to you and they were blind and they asked you to heal them and you were allowed to do it, how does it--

THERRY: You can't. Everything has its own limitations. It depends on how they're blind. For instance, if somebody went through some shock, and they're going through some conversion reaction situation, where there's no real damage to any of the physicalness; they're blind because of it's a protection for them.

SHELLY: Um-hum.

THERRY: Well, if I go and say some mumbo-jumbo bullshit, and touch their eyes and poke their ears and kick `em in the ass and twinge their nuts, and then suddenly, hey! I can see! Well, it's not me who's healed them. It's that he or she has manipulated their own environment.

SHELLY: What about that guy that you once, when you were walking with Tim and the guy needed crutches and then he passed by you and he didn't need his crutches anymore.

THERRY: Well, that's a different set of circumstances; let's not talk about miracles.

SHELLY: Yea, but it should follow the same law.

THERRY: It does follow the same law, but that's beside the point. We're not here to discuss the extent to which my abilities exist.

SHELLY: Oh, I know.

THERRY: I don't even want that stuff on tape.


THERRY: I'd rather keep that into healthy skepticism. I think Kung Fu said it quite well--no, not Kung Fu, Circle of Iron. `My abilities are not here to impress you.'

SHELLY: Then I'll ask it differently.

THERRY: You're still going to get the same answer.

SHELLY: No, okay, I won't even mention that though. If what you're saying is true about using their own illusion; the healer's merely focusing.

THERRY: All of the help that I've given you--it is not me who has done anything. I play a pawn so that you can see yourself, and then you do the work.

SHELLY: But if the person can't talk to you at all, then how would you heal them, if they--I can understand--

THERRY: Would you accept the possibility that there are many levels to language and many levels to understanding.


THERRY: Would you accept the fact that just because you and I are not sitting here moving our mouths, that's it's still possible that we could still be communicating?

SHELLY: Yes, so I guess that's how you could do it.


SHELLY: Which brings me to another question about illusion and reality. When someone has hallucinations from a drug, like, say they're withdrawing from alcohol and they see pink elephants on the wall--

THERRY: That's a chemical reaction.

SHELLY: So that is not a--

THERRY: That's an uncontrolled chemical reaction.

SHELLY: Is that an al--

THERRY: But it is connected to their value systems.

SHELLY: Is it an alter-reality?



THERRY: Not one that's a chemical reaction.

SHELLY: Then how do you tell the difference?

THERRY: `Cause you have to bear in mind that the human body is absolutely nothing but a chemical factory.

SHELLY: Right.

THERRY: One hundred percent of everything that is experienced with the human body is nothing more then a chemical reaction; a chemical interaction.

SHELLY: Um-hum.

THERRY: As well as interaction. So every now and then when certain disorders arise, certain chemicals are manufactured on their own, much like language has symbols of their own. Pink elephants, or delusion would be one of them, but they are connected with their value systems and their religious belief systems. They will see whatever it is that their values says are wrong.

SHELLY: Are wrong?


SHELLY: Why is that?

THERRY: Because that's the delusions aspect of it.

SHELLY: And can you not bring `em down and bring `em back even if their still under the chemical--okay, can you not change their illusion while they're still hallucinating?

THERRY: If you have the ability. You can control--my mind--or let me change that. An individual's mind can control more than one body if they have the power to.

SHELLY: Okay, well, that's going into psychic abilities. Can someone without extensive psychic abilities--

THERRY: But everybody has psychic abilities. Everybody. It's a common thing.


THERRY: It's simply a case of developing their potentials.

SHELLY: Oh, that's true. Okay, but for someone with minimal development--in other words, would it work if someone was in bed hallucinating because they were withdrawing from a drug, and--

THERRY: Let me put it this way, if you want to help somebody that's in quicksand, you yourself have to remain on stable ground.

SHELLY: Right. But if--I guess what I'm asking is if they were seeing spiders, could you convince them they were seeing pink elephants? Could you say this is a drug; you're hallucinating, you're withdrawing, I'm with you, you're safe--

THERRY: If you could succeed in talking to them, most donkeys, however, have to be hit on the head with a baseball bat in order to get their attention. People who are caught within the world of delusions usually they're not unlike that disease, what is it? When there's no communication.

SHELLY: Aphasia.

THERRY: No, not aphasia. Aphasia is when there's coding problems. Um, oh what's--I can't think of the word. It's when they shut themselves off.

SHELLY: Um, catatonic?

THERRY: No, not catatonic. Autism. Communication doesn't flow. They have their own values, their own--they're in their own private little world, except that in the DT world, it's stray chemicals, and in order to be able to help them, you have to be able to control their chemical nature. And in order to prevent the negative visions, you have to be able to communicate to them so that you can sidetrack their value systems.

SHELLY: Is that easier to do when someone's on acid, then when somebody's during the DT's?

THERRY: Yea, because if when somebody's on acid, they're usually looking for a base to hold onto, whereas if somebody's in the DT's, their chemicals are firing so sporadically that their value systems are the predominant condemnation.

SHELLY: I guess because on something like hallucinogens, your value systems are temporarily suspended, some of them. Your psychological screens are temporarily, some of them, suspended. They're kind of frozen.

THERRY: Well, I think they're sort of twisted.

SHELLY: Twisted? Is that the word you used?


SHELLY: I'm just wondering because I know--

THERRY: You get your wires crossed. There's a little bit of disassociation.

SHELLY: Because I've talked down people that were tripping, and I've guided them through without even knowing it. You told me that I did that. I didn't know at the time I was doing that.


SHELLY: But I was aware one other time when I was doing that right--soon after I met you, and my patient, the, she, her doctor stupidly--I don't know what it is with doctors. Some--

THERRY: Well they're not gods even though they like to play that role.

SHELLY: Well I know, but this, I mean it's common knowledge amongst nurses, doctors, even PT people, you know, physical therapists, that taking someone abruptly off valium is not a good thing to do. It gives them certain side-effects. Well, he did it anyway with this woman. And of course she went into hallucinations, and that's where my questions stemmed from. I wondered if anyone could have reached her, because there she was, frozen in bed, trapped in her body and trapped in her own mind seeing weird stuff on the walls.

THERRY: Well, you'd have to be able to enter her mind. I don't know very many people who can do that.

SHELLY: Well, I knew I couldn't. I was wondering if I could have done it through verbal.

THERRY: No, you'd have to get her attention. And because of the dissociation, the crossed wires, you have no way of knowing what the definitions are going to be applied, if any, to your words.

SHELLY: Could you ask them to describe it, and would they, and could you do it that way?

THERRY: In order for that to occur, language has to be present, and there's no guarantee it is.

SHELLY: Because I know with people that are tripping on most drugs, not really only hallucinogens because most of those kind recreational use drugs you can get people's attention, and even if they can't describe things to you, you can keep telling them that they're safe, and you can hold them or hold their hand, or touch them, and that brings them back.

THERRY: Yea, that's because communication exists there. But if somebody's in delirium, a touch may not be a touch; it may be a snake eating them.

SHELLY: Oh, that's a good point. So what's the best way to handle it? Is it really to tie them down?

THERRY: There is no best. You have to go on the situation as it is.

SHELLY: Most of the time they give them a shot, but they didn't give her anything; they let her stay that way for a few days. Like three or four days. And then they put her back on the valium.


SHELLY: Ducken stupid, if you ask me. Of course, nobody did. I think that eventually I may be able to be a co-healer. I don't really like the word healer itself; it's kind of arrogant.

THERRY: Yea it is. That's why I never use it.

SHELLY: What's a better word?

THERRY: I don't try to frame one.

SHELLY: Okay, what's a word that defines what you do without taking the power from the person who's really doing the healing, since it's the person


THERRY: There's already a word in the English language that serves that quite well.



SHELLY: Pawn. Except then everyone has a particular view of that word that's not accurate. If I say I'm a pawn, I'm a, I guess you could say I'm a pawn to other people's healing, then they'll ask you what the fuck you're talking about.

THERRY: Why not simply say I play a pawn for them. Why do you have to make it so ingrandized so that you have to play the healer role?

SHELLY: That's a good point. Did people always do things just to serve them--I shouldn't say that. That's not even a good--if I do something--

THERRY: Usually, yes.

SHELLY: Usually yes?

THERRY: People usually serve themselves even though in outward appearance, it appears to be altruistic.

SHELLY: Well I started doing things for people because I liked to, and because of the belief system that Arkashea taught me. And now, you're right, I do get a good feeling from it. And I have to be careful that I don't become a rescuer. And yet, I also realized, that even before I met you, even though I didn't realize it, people that needed taking care of were attracted to me, and other people that probably needed it but didn't admit it as much, someone like Beth at the time, I took care of them in a way, in kind of a mother kind of role, where sometimes they'd say not to do that--

THERRY: You're not being honest right now.



SHELLY: How so?

THERRY: I'm picking up that the only reason why you did things with Beth was because you wanted to get in her pants.

SHELLY: That's only part of it; that's not the whole thing. I also liked her, I also cared about her.

THERRY: I should hope to, because I'd hate to think that you'd want to get into somebody's pants because you hated them.

SHELLY: Well, but it became a lot more then that. That was intertwined in it, but at one point in our--

THERRY: That's still the driving force behind the relationship.

SHELLY: At that point, yes. But that, I wasn't using that as an example of altruism; I was using that as an example of having ended up acting in the mother role to someone because something in me perceived something in them needing it, and even when she jokingly said, don't do that, or sometimes seriously said don't do that, and always ended up that it worked out that way that she seemed to need taking care of, and I seemed to take care of her a lot. And looking back for other people, people--

THERRY: But it doesn't change the fact that if you didn't have the desires to get in her pants, you wouldn't play that role with her.

SHELLY: With her, that's true probably, because I wouldn't have known her. But there's other cases where that's not true. In Gainesville I was--

THERRY: Doesn't change the fact that you're thinking process was not as honest as they could have been.

SHELLY: How so? That wasn't my main point. Now you're talking about not staying on the subject. I was trying--

THERRY: Um-um.

SHELLY:--to make one point.

THERRY: Yea, and that point was not valid because you were talking about you not serving yourself.

SHELLY: I was talking about having something in me that tends to rescue people.


SHELLY: And that in Gainesville I first noticed it because a lot of people that needed taking care of ended up coming to me to be taken care of in some way or other, even though I wasn't in a good position to take care of them at the time.

THERRY: I can accept that, but you can't use Beth as one of these examples.

SHELLY: Okay, that's true. The driving--I just--I recognized that that element was there; was not the driving force, it was just that I recognized it before Gainesville. It came up in the form of people accusing me of mothering them.


SHELLY: And that somewhere within the relationship that happened without me being all that aware--well, yea, I was aware of it. That wasn't my prime intent. Sharon used to accuse me the same thing afterwards.


SHELLY: After Gainesville, and yes, Sharon was another person who's pants I wanted to get into.


SHELLY: But that, I mean I wasn't primarily trying to rescue them either, I was trying to date them; there was a big difference.

THERRY: Yep. That's why I say you can't use them.

SHELLY: Okay, I--

THERRY: To make your point.

SHELLY: Okay, but in Gainesville there were people who I didn't have any interest getting into their pants, mainly men, and mainly people in not too good situations, and they always seemed to end up around me, and someone else pointed that out to me, and then said something about my astrology chart and how that was in there; I was a strong mother image or something like that. I don't know.

THERRY: Yea, because you were looking for one.

SHELLY: I only bring that up because it's still there.

THERRY: Yea, I accept all that. I know all that.

SHELLY: And there was another point I wanted to make besides that, if it was still there, but now I don't remember what it was. Oh it had something to do with trying to be careful that I don't turn into some--oh, the good feelings that I get from helping people. That initially I started helping people based on the values I learned at Arkashea. I mean, aside from wanting to get into people's pants; just the general helping general people, and you're right, at this point I realize that there's Karma for that. For doing it and for not doing it, and I also get a good feeling for doing it. It's like being a helping junkie.

THERRY: Um-hum.

SHELLY: And so--

THERRY: And there comes the danger of playing God.

SHELLY: Oh yea, I can see that. I guess what I, what my point of this conversation, or this, I'm trying to ask a question, is that--

THERRY: Doesn't sound like you're trying to ask a question. Sounds like you're trying to educate me.

SHELLY: No, I'm trying to phrase it within that context of doing something for yourself is--now that I have those good feelings from helping people, and know that I get them from helping people, when I'm motivated to help someone else, I don't think that it's because I'm helping myself, but you made a statement earlier that made it sound like it was; that I now did everything only for myself because even with helping people, I'm helping myself, or I'm doing something for myself because I get a good feeling from doing it. Which makes the intent still to help me and not to help them.

THERRY: No, not at all.

SHELLY: Alright. That was the question I was trying to ask. Right there.

THERRY: You mean is the intent always to help oneself? No, not at all.

SHELLY: It sounded like it, way back, a couple of tapes ago when you made that statement.

THERRY: Um-hum.

SHELLY: So if you're saying it's not--

THERRY: The same way as if you go to a beach, you want to go swimming. Your intent may be to go into the water, but it doesn't change the fact that in the process of doing that, you know ahead of time you'll go to the beach because you'll get all of this extra stuff too. You'll get the sand, you'll get the people, you'll get the interaction with the people, you'll get the sun, the sunburn, the tanning, whatever. You can't deny that you're going to the beach because all of those things are also there even though the intent is strictly to go into the water, so therefore it's not pure.

SHELLY: It's not pure because you'll get all of those other things?

THERRY: Right.

SHELLY: So then you can never, as long as you're in a physical--well, maybe even ever, purely help someone else because--

THERRY: Exactly.

SHELLY: --you're always helping yourself too.

THERRY: Exactly. You can't help somebody without helping your species and therefore help yourself.

SHELLY: Okay, then what's the difference between that and people that you said ended up in nursing homes because they only served themselves, and even though it appeared the illusion was they had a family and they were serving others, that in fact they were serving only themselves and doing everything for themselves?

THERRY: Because those people who are abandoned in old age were so busy serving themselves that they didn't care for the needs of their children, and hence, when their children was there, rather, when--because they were not there for their children, the pattern will repeat that their children won't be there for them either.

SHELLY: Even if it's only in their illusion, right?


SHELLY: Because you once said that my mother would feel that way.


SHELLY: And I said how, I'm willing to do all this stuff, but I just realized tonight that if someone doesn't feel loved, then it doesn't really matter what anybody else does--

THERRY: Correct.

SHELLY:--because in their mind they're still not loved.

THERRY: Correct.

SHELLY: And so that's how the pattern could repeat itself--

THERRY: Correct.

SHELLY: --even if it doesn't repeat itself physically.

THERRY: Correct.

SHELLY: Well the whole human race then seems to be caught by ghosts and dreams.

THERRY: Yes, it's the number one plague man has to fight.

SHELLY: Both of those? Ghosts and dreams?


SHELLY: It seems that either people are pursuing dreams or fighting ghosts, or doing some of both.

THERRY: Yep. And paying very little attention to what is real. They're too caught up in their private illusions.

SHELLY: But you just finished telling me isn't, aren't those real because they're real for them.

THERRY: They're real for them but it doesn't change the fact that they are a product of and solely resident in the world of illusion.

SHELLY: So when you say paying very little attention to what is real, what is your definition of what is real on that sentence?

THERRY: What really happens in a relationship is seldom thought of.

SHELLY: It's just the two people's illusions of it.

THERRY: Yep. So therefore if a father goes out of his way to see that a daughter is supported, he buys a building and does everything he can so that he can see that the daughter is well; but if the daughter doesn't see that, all she sees is he's not there, then what is really happening the daughter doesn't see. She only sees what she wants to see.

SHELLY: You think it's stupid that I'm moving to California?

THERRY: I think you have to do what it is you have to do. The only thing that I think is stupid is when a person refuses to learn and to grow.

SHELLY: I could have things a lot easier if I live in Florida. Or at least, potentially.

THERRY: Those are trade-offs that you have to make for yourself.

SHELLY: You're right. But I think of things like AIDS and earthquakes, and I wonder if I'm not insane.

THERRY: Nobody's perfect.

SHELLY: But then I call them up and everybody's so nice out there in the school, and they've got a bunch of programs that I would really like to take, and they've got educational opportunities from a perspective that I would really like to incorporate into my practice. And I don't think that even if I move out there after I go to school somewhere else that it'll be different because my training will already be done. I'll have mentors, but it'll be different. I'll already have some reference points--

THERRY: Are you telling me that you'll never have a second chance to get a first impression of California?


THERRY: Oh, okay.

SHELLY: No, of the masters level of nursing, or of the counseling program.

THERRY: Oh, okay.

SHELLY: Of California, yes, it'll be different because I'll be a different age and a different person, but it'll still be a first impression of California, but I won't have a second chance to get a first impression of my programs for my profession.


SHELLY: So yes.


SHELLY: It's one reason I've started dressing nicer.

THERRY: Um-hum. You look better, that's for sure.

SHELLY: Well, thank you.

THERRY: You have a better ambiance when you dress properly. Again, I use the word properly only because of the game that you're in.

SHELLY: What's defined as properly for which game? You mean the nursing game or the gay game or the--

THERRY: Yea, the nursing game. It is not cool, so to speak, to dress and play the hippie role, if you're trying to play the nursing game.

SHELLY: No, I usually dress up for work. You just never see me dressed for work.

THERRY: It's pretty difficult to dress up and not play a hippie role when your hairstyle cries out hippie.

SHELLY: Well, maybe that part's true.

THERRY: Right now, at least, the hairstyle that you have fits you well. It's manly, but still nonetheless, it fits you quite well.

SHELLY: I don't--manly?


SHELLY: How is this manly?

THERRY: Because I know many men who have that hairstyle. But nonetheless it still fits you well. It doesn't cry out, hey, look at me; I'm different.

SHELLY: Yep. In California I'll be looked at as a major conservative. There's one other thing. Today I got a potential job offer.

THERRY: Yes I know, you said that already.

SHELLY: I know, but you never responded. What I wanted to ask--

THERRY: Perhaps it's because I didn't find it all that important. And perhaps it because I figured it's none of my business.

SHELLY: Well, maybe those are all true statements.


SHELLY: However, I would like to know if it's--well, I would like to know what the potential outcomes would be to tell them that I'm going to move. See, I had not mentioned that was going to move to them yet at all, on either side. And yet I've been with this company for over a year and--I mean it's the same company; it's just the other side. For home health you had to have a year or mores experience. For the other one, the private duty temporary staffing, you did not. So I started doing the home health in emergency situations `cause they knew I wasn't doing much nursing, and now--the lady really liked me. Also, I think we have a little more in common. She's been an oncology nurse for a long time. We seemed to hit it off. She's the head of the program. So I've been doing these twenty dollar visits for them, and I guess they like my work enough, and I've also been getting more weekend work and more other work on the other side too. So today she came and said they had an opening, and they'd start me off part time and move to full time.

I would like to transfer to Upjohn in California if they have one near where I'm going to live. I know they have them out there, I just don't know if they have them in my area. Um, but I had not told any of them about California yet, and I have a good nine months, eight months, a good eight months here, possibly nine months even if I get accepted to school, so I'd really like this opportunity. I'm wondering if it's dishonorable to not tell them that I may move to California to go to graduate school on the home health side?

THERRY: Isn't that something you have to decide for yourself?

SHELLY: Well, I guess why I asked you is because I wonder what the rules of business are?

THERRY: Have the rules of business anything to do with what you feel is right and wrong?

SHELLY: Well, yes because I've made this mistake before. You told me I was too honest and I sounded like I didn't want the job, and that was on an interview, and then you told me there were certain rules and expectations in business. I think it would be honorable to tell them, and I'm wondering if that's really stupid. I'm wondering if I'm just being ignorant of how the world works.

THERRY: Well, if you can guarantee them at least eight months, for most businesses, that's pretty good.

SHELLY: I mean, I figured at Lakeshore last year when I got a job, I had obviously intended to be there for years and it only lasted three months so who can tell. It seems like I'd be stupid.

THERRY: Yea, it is a fact that there is a big arbitrary situation here because business will not hesitate to throw you right out the window at a moment's notice. That is fact.