Arkashean Q&A Session -- 070
THERRY: Repeat what you just said.
ZOIA: God, I don't know if I remember it all.
THERRY: You don't have to repeat all of it.
ZOIA: Um, I realized, I was mad because I kept thinking that they've never supported anything that I've ever done that was my choice; they've always tried to manipulate me with their money, and I've always thought that my Dad was a nicer person then I'm finding out he really is.
THERRY: Aren't you being a little hard on him again?
ZOIA: Yea. And then, but then I thought well, when he sent me this thing I thought they really do love me, and I'm being a spoiled brat because I'm wanting them to pay for my education, and that's my expectations and demands, and because they're not doing it, I'm pissed at him, which brought me to the realization--I was seeing how my war was more of my own illusions and it got back to expectations and demands because I remembered you saying that whenever you have a war it's really between you and yourself. So I was thinking that my war with him is between me and myself, and so it's between me and my expectations and demands. Um, what I wasn't as clear on was when someone demands something, it seemed like as a pattern, he was saying if you make a trade-off for this relationship to come to Miami, I'll pay for these things. The price is you change your life to come here and be where I want, and what you get out of it is an easier time to go to graduate school. That does seem to be the pattern; is that correct?
THERRY: That's only a possibility.
ZOIA: Okay, possibility of a pattern.
THERRY: What about the possibility that he's really concerned about you. That he may be afraid of what you may come in contact with in California. After all, California's a dangerous place. There's a lot of AIDS out there. Maybe he is concerned that you'll get involved with the wrong crowd out there, and without realizing it, be drawn into an environmental situation that would not be very nice for you. So perhaps he is in his own way, trying to show he loves you by trying to protect you for the future.
ZOIA: Well, that was something I hadn't thought of. I thought of it as strictly a power play.
THERRY: Doesn't have to be. Again, I'm not saying it's not a power play; I'm simply giving you an alternate point of view which is all I ever do.
ZOIA: Well, that's a good point. That makes me feel like more of a shmuck because I was thinking that, um, well, that it was wrong of me. You know, I have no right to demand the things I'm demanding of him, and it doesn't mean that he doesn't love me to do what he's doing, just because he thinks that that's the way to get what he wants. I guess, well, there's a number of things going on. I was trying to figure out the validity to what you said about war, um, being between you and yourself. I mean, I had seen that when you said it, but I was trying to really apply it more, because I recognized that it was my expectations and demands that was giving me all these problems inside. Inside I felt a real edge to me and in my mind, you know, lately I haven't been feeling too loving or forgiving or understanding towards him; I've just been kind of fluffing him off.
THERRY: The regular spoiled brat, huh?
ZOIA: Yea, that's true. So I realized I was wrong and that I had no right to do that. The part I got confused about was because then it brought me back to the issue of purple because I was thinking about the war and the war with myself, and if it was the same pattern of my expectations and demands. Well, I realize that that taught me a number of things. It taught me that I don't like limits placed on me by other people, and it taught me that I don't like to make a lot of trade-offs for particular relationships because again, it gets back to limits, and it also taught me --
THERRY: Seems to me you just forgot something here.
ZOIA: What's that?
THERRY: You just accused your folks of refusing to allow themselves to be put out for a relationships, specifically, you. Seems to me you just said the same thing about yourself. Seems to me you're doing what it is that you accuse them of doing.
ZOIA: I think there's a difference between--well, maybe it's --
THERRY: Yea, the difference is you instead of them, right?
ZOIA: No, no, I'm not saying that. Maybe it's a difference in degree. But I think trade-offs and prices is difference then just inconvenience. Maybe it's just difference in degree, but I think there's a difference there.
THERRY: I think the only difference is the fact that the shoe's on the other foot.
ZOIA: Oh, I don't think so because I saw the pattern. I mean I'm not, I'm not denying that I don't, that I don't do those things, or that they do them; we both do them. What I'm trying to figure out is--we had this conversation before a little bit over Molly, and you said the same thing. You said that it was my not wanting to be inconvenienced. My question, because I thought about that, is what is the difference, then, between paying a price and making a trade-off, versus being inconvenienced. It seems to me--
THERRY: They overlap.
THERRY: Every time you have to make a trade-off, of any kind, regardless, there's an inconvenience attached to it.
ZOIA: Well, that makes sense. I was thinking maybe it was degree.
ZOIA: Because there are trade-offs I am willing to make even though there's inconveniences attached to it. I mean, it's certainly an inconvenience to move to California.
THERRY: But if you think, the inconveniences, as you call them, that you're willing to go for are those that serve your needs.
ZOIA: But there's plenty of times I'm willing to serve somebody else's needs when the inconvenience don't go towards me...
THERRY: That's bullshit. The only time that you're willing to serve somebody else's needs is when, in the long run, you expect to get something back from it.
ZOIA: That may be true.
THERRY: It's awfully easy to be understanding if there's really nothing there to understand. It's also very easy to give something away to somebody if you expect to get twice as much in return. And it's awfully easy to do a good deed if somebody else pays the bill.
ZOIA: That's true. Ah, but I don't totally agree with you.
THERRY: Of course not, because it's talking about you.
ZOIA: No, that's not why, because I have done things for people not expecting anything back and not getting much back, if anything. Mostly involving helping people in some way, whether it be getting them groceries when they couldn't afford it or offering to help them with their kids or their house or helping them listening to their problems.
THERRY: I'm sorry, but even in those times you only did it because it made you feel good, so you still got the reward. It was still your feminine machismo.
ZOIA: Well, I don't see that at this point.
THERRY: All right.
ZOIA: There's plenty of people that have come to me, that I knew I wasn't going to get anything, to use your terminology, because either, just in the sexual arena people that have come to me and come on to me and they weren't out, but I spent a good deal of time helping them with their problems; I knew I wasn't going to date them.
THERRY: Now, you can't -- now that's pure bullshit. You knew damn well that the only reason why you did that because you were very aware of Karma, and you didn't want to cross the line because you didn't want to have pay those prices.
ZOIA: I did it because I think it's right, and you're right, I am aware of Karma, but I do it because I think it's the better thing to do.
THERRY: Only because you don't want to pay the prices of doing the wrong things. Let's be a little shade of honest there.
ZOIA: Well, from what you're saying, then, everything is entirely self-motivated in the whole world.
THERRY: You got it.
ZOIA: Including any good deeds somebody does. Is that what you're saying?
THERRY: It's absolutely impossible to do anything for anyone without you getting some form of reward for it, either positive or negative. That's the claim to uniqueness. That is very evident in the fact that every single time your dad shakes your reality even in the slightest tiny little bit, you go bananas against him. There's no call for that. There's really no reason for you to be at war with him so often the way you are, other than you're just a spoiled brat who's got her own illusions a little bit shaken.
ZOIA: That's true. Well, there is another reason. I feel like I'm still too dependant on him financially. And hopefully that's going to change--
THERRY: Is that a reason for you to go to war with your dad? Seems to me that's counter what you need. If you expect something out of him, it's not cool to go to war unless, unless you expect a peace offering from him.
ZOIA: No, I don't expect a peace offering. No, what I need to do is get myself more independent, and know that I can support myself, and hopefully that's just about to happen. I was offered a job today for a home health agency for Upjohn.
THERRY: Seems to me that if you want to get yourself independent, I don't think the finances are all that important because it is not the finances that really cause you to go to war with your dad.
ZOIA: It's not?
ZOIA: Then what is it?
THERRY: Those are simply pawns, because, if you think for a minute, the intensity of your war with him is far too strong for it to be the finances themselves.
ZOIA: Seems to me that it's security factors centered around finances.
THERRY: Seems to me that if you want to be a little more honest, it's based around expectations and demands and the communication of love.
ZOIA: How so?
THERRY: Because every single time that he shakes your tree, you always come back with the same statement: he doesn't love me.
ZOIA: That's a good point.
THERRY: Because think back, that's the one refrain that I've been hearing from you ever since I've known you, and we've spent I don't know how many years trying to show you that he does love you. He may not code it in the way that you're ready to accept, but he does demonstrate it. Did I light a light bulb? So perhaps, now that that light bulb is lit--and let it out; don't hold back your tears. Now that it's finally, after all of this time, now out in the open, why don't you now try to decipher what would be necessary, what do you think would be necessary for you to really finally get the message that he really does love you. He just does things in his own way.
ZOIA: That's a good point. Every time he does anything that, that ah, affects what I perceive of as his support of me, or what I'm doing, and I guess it's centered around a lot money, but I guess I tell myself that he doesn't love me. And I guess I've never realized that before, and I sat here and just said that, I didn't realize the pattern. I guess that's a good point. That must be what I tell myself in my mind.
THERRY: Obviously some part of you believes that, and you're not paying attention to the overtures that he always makes. I mean, look, here he dislikes Arkashea so badly, but yet even though he knows or thinks you are part of Arkashea, he will still do things to make sure that you're surviving, and that you're okay. What greater love can that be? He'll cohort with what he perceives as enemies just to make sure that you're well. What greater love can there be then that. Why do you think we have spent so many years trying to get you to understand that he does love you, and there's really no reason for you to be at war with him.
It's not good for you to fight back those tears as difficult as you're doing; you're a whole lot better off to just let it out; let the emotions go. That way, by letting the emotions go, you can begin recognizing what it is that you're fighting. And maybe through the tears you can come to love him as well.
ZOIA: What I'm fighting is ghosts and dreams.
THERRY: Yes. Ghosts and dreams of your creation; not his, because of your expectations and your demands. You make the error by looking at other people's parents and how they behave with their children and you create your ghosts on how he should behave with you based on the illusion that you see of others. (Big pause)
ZOIA: I don't know what it would take for all of me to feel like he loves me. Maybe going back and reliving childhood which is impossible. I do believe, on my better days, that he loves me, and yet when something happens to affect my illusion, I totally go to war with him, and that's the refrain somewhere within me.
THERRY: Seems to me that again, you are playing out what you have accused him of doing.
ZOIA: How's that?
THERRY: Well, a little while ago, not too very long ago, you came crying angrier then a wet hen because he refused to believe that you loved him.
ZOIA: Oh that's right. I remember that.
THERRY: I mean you were, you were angrier than any person I've ever seen, and I'd like to have a nickel for every bucket of tears we had. Seems to me that you're now playing the same game.
ZOIA: Which just goes to show the illusions are more important then anything in reality.
THERRY: Well, isn't that what the law says? Does not the law say that illusions are the driving force for reality?
ZOIA: Yea, but it also says that reality is the source for those illusions.
ZOIA: That it still seems that even though reality is the source, it's the illusions that drive the emotions, and it doesn't matter what really happened in reality that was the source for those illusions, it's still people's illusions that are driving them to do all sorts of things.
THERRY: Exactly. Isn't that the law? So doesn't that indicate to you that you have to be careful of those illusions `cause they're not always correct?
THERRY: Then why ain't you being careful instead of accepting the illusions at face value?
ZOIA: Well that's another thing. I got so confused this week on that subject. When you think of something and you have a reference point, your reference point is illusion.
THERRY: Aren't you forgetting your psychological screens and your prejudices?
ZOIA: No, I put them into the equation.
THERRY: Then everything should equal zero then.
ZOIA: Well, zero meaning nothing?
THERRY: No, meaning there's a perfect balance; a perfect equation. Because if you take into account the psychological screens, etc., and the prejudices, etc., then it's a perfect equation.
ZOIA: But then how do you know which is a more valid reference point, or if you're just going off biased on emotions? I mean, when I tell you I have a theory, like lately I've been thinking of theories, trying to understand how things work, or how I think they work, and then I think, well, I realize that I'm making an awful lot of assumptions to even have one reference point.
THERRY: Seems to me that the one thing that you don't take into consideration is you.
ZOIA: How so?
THERRY: Her expectations and her demands. Seems to me--
ZOIA: No, I thought about that when I talked, when I talked about biases, or think about the biases that are there--
THERRY: What good are empty thoughts if you don't give truth to them? Take a look at the situation between you and your Dad. You never ever even had that as part of your equation.
ZOIA: That's true.
THERRY: And if you do that here, how often do you think you do it in other set of circumstances?
ZOIA: Well I know I must be missing information, but then how do you use your assumptions as reference points? The only answer I came up with is you get more facts, and as you get more facts you update your information and then your reference points are more accurate.
THERRY: Is there a phrase that can help you in that? I think it's called: don't jump to conclusions because the person who may be jumping off the cliff might be you.
ZOIA: Okay, so then if you're not jumping to conclusions, how do you think a thought or form an opinion about something when you add all these things into the equation and you know your information's incomplete?
THERRY: Then perhaps one should think that only a fool makes any conclusions if they know that their equations are incomplete.
ZOIA: Well then how do you have ref--okay, how about reference points, then?
THERRY: Reference points are not necessary to make the area that you're speaking of. Reference points are nothing more then a collection of roles as they interact with the games of the situation that you're in. Take, for instance, the war that's between you, the ongoing war between you and your folks. Since you're dealing more with that now, let's see if you can understand how all of that works. Then perhaps, using that as an example, perhaps you can understand how you're making an error. Because, from what I view, the exponent that you left out of the equation is resentment.
ZOIA: How would we go back and do that?
THERRY: Think about the situation.
ZOIA: Well, we have my parents, we have me. They don't believe I love them, and apparently at times I don't believe they love me. Obviously we code parts--
THERRY: But why? What is it that makes you think that they don't love you?
ZOIA: I don't really know, but my guess is--
THERRY: No, guesses are not good. Guesses are a part of the tools that allow you to jump to conclusions.
ZOIA: Well in that case I don't know. I can see when I most get upset, and that's usually when he does something with money that threatens my security.
THERRY: Then perhaps you now know of a place to start in order to be able solve that problem. If you really do not know what it is that makes you think he does not love you, perhaps you ought to investigate that. `Cause until you know what it is inside of you that is disturbing you, how are you going to be able to put the war to rest?
ZOIA: How do I find out what that is?
THERRY: Okay, let's play a little side game, okay? If you're involved in a scenario, how do you know if you've enjoyed yourself or not?
ZOIA: You look back on it and then see if you enjoyed yourself.
THERRY: But if you look back on it, what is it that you look at?
ZOIA: Your illusion of what it is or was?
THERRY: What else?
ZOIA: Your memories.
THERRY: Memories of what?
ZOIA: Of the event that took place that you enjoyed.
THERRY: What event?
ZOIA: Didn't you just say if something--if you --
THERRY: In other words, go deeper into it. For instance, arbitrarily let's make a false game; you and somebody went to a circus.
THERRY: Did you enjoy yourself? Let's say no. Why?
ZOIA: Well, could have been the environment was uncomfortable.
THERRY: In what way?
ZOIA: Ah, temperature was too cold; I was hungry; ah, there was a guy sitting in front of me and I couldn't see `cause he was too big for where I was sitting; me and the person I was with had a fight before we got there so we went in and we were mad at each other, and instead of watching the circus, I was thinking about the fight, and not being able to see anyway because this guy was in front of me. Um, and I was cold and hungry.
THERRY: Or afraid.
ZOIA: Or afraid.
THERRY: In other words, do that same type of thinking--can you see what you're doing is you're thinking of all the little possibilities, all of the little behaviors moment by moment as to what happened during this mythical trip to the circus.
THERRY: Do that same type of thinking in terms of this mythical trip that Mel took when she was growing up.
ZOIA: Okay. It's killing me to stay on one subject.
THERRY: Yes, I know. (Laughter)
ZOIA: `Cause I had this great thought, and I think it's true, and I just thought about it this afternoon. When we learn--
THERRY: Stay on one subject.
ZOIA: All right. I don't want to forget it though. All right.
THERRY: Learning is a fabric. When you learn in one area, it opens up a whole lot of things in a lot of other areas. So for now, let's see if we can help put that war between you and your Dad to rest.
ZOIA: I think probably the biggest thing, if I was thinking of possibilities, okay, we're going back to when I was growing up, right, to think about the possibilities?
THERRY: Yea. What is it that makes you think he really does not love you?
ZOIA: I think the possibility is, or are that he hardly ever spoke to me or spent any time with me when I was growing up `cause he was always spending time and speaking with my brother, and I was my mother's responsibility, and my brother was my Dad's. So I guess I could, I don't feel valued, or I don't feel that he valued me, or I didn't feel that he valued me. It's possible that because I'm female, I feel that he sees me as unimportant and trivial, and that no matter what I do accomplish in the world, it won't really count as much as if I was a man.
ZOIA: Because I'm a woman.
THERRY: But what makes you think you being a woman would have that affect on him?
ZOIA: I just have the feeling from seeing how he treats women, and listening to him say things throughout my life, even recently, about his comments towards women that he doesn't that what they do is as important as what men do. He doesn't think --he just thinks they're--they don't know as much; they're not as smart; they're just more trivial in the world. They almost don't matter in a way, except to be with men and to fuck `em, and to meet their needs; men's needs. He's become more distant from me as I've gotten older, even though he didn't talk to me much when I was younger, there wasn't anything separating us. I knew he loved me as his child, his--kinda like the pride that a sire feels for property, and as I've turned more into a woman, I've felt, it seems like there was something between us, an otherness that I really felt when he made some nasty comments to me when him and my Mom were separating about me being a woman. They were nasty, sexually based comments, for the most part, about me being like other women, and I obviously knew that he didn't care much for other women. Which brings it down to a sex-based war, so far.
THERRY: Not entirely. It brings down to the coding of love. Obviously his pain seems to be on a interpersonal level, and that quite often gets mistaken as sex.
ZOIA: Well, he never said those things about men, or to my brother. He never made even general comments about men.
THERRY: But why can't you see that it is pain that is talking? Why do you have to take it personal? Is that why you've tried so hard throughout your life to try to be a man?
ZOIA: I don't know; maybe.
THERRY: Because, as I remember, in everything that you do, even in your relationship in the gay world, you are a man. You play the role of a man, you behave, you try to behave as if you are total man, and every time you get involved with women areas, you go bananas
THERRY: What does that make you feel?
ZOIA: I had a thought that I was trying to integrate my more feminine areas into myself. All that mostly makes me is confused.
THERRY: What do you mean?
ZOIA: Well, I feel most of the time like I'm a man that has to integrate my feminine areas into myself. I mean in my mind; my body doesn't feel like a man, obviously. I mean, I don't know. I like being a woman in some ways; in some ways it's a lot more leeway in society then being a man, and I realize that and I like those parts.
THERRY: Then why are you so hung up on insisting on playing men's roles in everything that you do?
ZOIA: I guess because I still fundamentally feel like it's men that are respected in the world; it's not only --if a man and a woman does the same thing, a lot of times society puts more stock in what the man has done, and pays more attention to it, whether it's a book or an opinion; not so much if it's a medical discovery, but especially if it's something that's more humanities oriented. Like if there's two theories, and a man and a woman both comes up with different theories about humanity, generally it's the man's view that's taken by the greater society as being the more important one. And a lot of times the society will say that the woman's is biased because she's a woman, but they won't say the man's is biased because he's a man. And his is just as biased by his limitations as hers is by hers. But I don't think society sees that, and I guess I really don't see it either. Because I do put more stock in what men say then what women say. As a matter of fact I had my glasses done. This woman told me something about it; of course she ended up lying which wasn't too bright, but I didn't believe her until the man told me the same thing. I took it for a second opinion; it was a man; he was also older then she was, and his opinion, even though he said essentially the same thing that she did, only he explained why she also said the lie part of what she said--she was trying to deal with my emotions so that I would take my glasses and wear them. Um, I believed him, and was satisfied with the explanation after he gave it and not really--when she did it, it wasn't only the information--
I was afraid that she didn't know what she was doing because I was getting dizzy from my glasses, and it had to do with the center of balance that was off, and when they fixed it, they did fix it, but only halfway, but she told me it was fixed the whole way--that was the lie part. And she probably told me that so I'd just wear `em and forget it, but instead I just thought she didn't know what she was talking about, but I went to a guy, and he told me the same thing, but then he told me that she probably told me that so that I would wear them, and that actually she did me a favor but she should have told me what was really involved and she didn't. And then I was satisfied.
THERRY: So then because he was more explicative, he explained it more, you believed it. But, perhaps why you believed him was because he explained it, not because he was a man.
ZOIA: That's true. I was just lying here thinking that. But I also do remember that I really doubted her abilities even when she was helping me. It was at another store the two people. But when she was helping me pick out frames and stuff and telling me about my prescription, I really doubted whether she knew what she was doing. Oh, because she, she told me initially that my initial prescription, that the center of balance was wrong that I'd been wearing for eight years, and I didn't believe her.
ZOIA: Turns out that it was, but I didn't believe her.
THERRY: Okay, but perhaps it was the words that were spoken rather then who was speaking them.
ZOIA: Maybe. I don't know on this issue; sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees.
ZOIA: Because I do think of some of my friends, and I take their opinion, but then I take yours usually above everybody, but I--there's so many variables that who can say which one it is.
THERRY: Yea, but I don't give you opinions. I haven't yet.
ZOIA: You're right. Okay, but sometimes we talk about politics and stuff and you have opinions about what you would do and why, and someone else could tell me in the world what they would do and why, and I'd believe yours more then I would believe theirs. Or at least I would initially be predisposed to believe yours more then theirs. And then that has a lot to do with different variables; you know law, I've seen you --you have a proven track record, I mean there's there's, you see patterns; I respect your judgment--
THERRY: Yea, but that's not because I'm a man.
THERRY: A woman in my position could do exactly the same thing.
ZOIA: That part's true. That part's true. It just seems that I generally give more authority to men. I mean, maybe I'm not describing it very well, but I've looked at myself --
THERRY: See, I see an inconsistency there. What was her name?
ZOIA: I'll give you a better example, but who? Tiea?
THERRY: No, not Tiea.
THERRY: That doctor that you were in love with.
THERRY: No, not Sam.
ZOIA: Um, the sociology professor?
THERRY: I guess, I don't know; if you give a name, I will--
ZOIA: Jaye? That's --
THERRY: No, this college professor bit.
ZOIA: That's Jaye. The college professor's Jaye.
THERRY: That's Jaye?
THERRY: The one that you used to run after all the time--
ZOIA: That was Jaye, yea.
THERRY: `Cause you used to instantly believe absolutely everything she said.
ZOIA: That's true. That's, that was the first woman I ever did that to too. But you're right, that is true. But with Wayne--
THERRY: Now, was she a male?
ZOIA: Well, then how come I ask Wayne every time there's an opinion to be had, I always ask Wayne what his opinion is, even when it's something that he knows absolutely nothing about. I just noticed recently that I do this.
THERRY: Perhaps it's a security factor and it's got nothing to do with male or female. Because Wayne has a track record of being with you when nobody else in the world was. When both your Dad and your Mom was nowhere for you, Wayne was there, and he stuck with you regardless of how bad it got for you.
ZOIA: That's true.
THERRY: Perhaps that's why; it's got nothing to do with the fact that he's a male; just that he was always honest with you and he was dependable. And what has all that to do with the fact that every single time your Dad shakes your tree, you always accuse him of not loving you.
ZOIA: I don't know. I guess we were on the myth and everything pointed to a sexual thing but maybe that's not true. I mean gender, not sex; not sexuality.
THERRY: Um-hum. Can you see that there's a possibility there that you have not put the resentment in your equation. You haven't been dealing with that?
ZOIA: That I resented all these things in my past, you mean?
THERRY: Yea. And you haven't forgiven because the resentment is still there.
ZOIA: Yea, maybe that's true.
THERRY: Perhaps an even more important question is, regardless of the validity of it, do you really have the right to resent?
THERRY: If you don't have the right to resent, but you do anyway, perhaps that needs to be looked at.
ZOIA: Well it seems like since all that stuff is so far in the past; it must be resentment that's keeping it there. I mean keeping it alive.
THERRY: It doesn't seem like it's that far in the past to me considering every single visit that you ever have with them you deal with it all over again. I don't remember a single visit that you've ever had with them where you didn't come back in a thither.
ZOIA: Well the last few before this one I came back and they hadn't bothered me too much.
THERRY: Yea, you've only cried one night instead of a week.
ZOIA: Well it's true that they set me off every time I visit because every time I visit they're quite nasty to me after a few days. They don't mean to be. I mean, they're not nasty in the sense of I hate you; they're nasty in the sense of they belittle everything I believe from Arkashea on down from like the second day I'm there more or less, well, intermittently, I shouldn't say continuously, but every time we have a social interaction they make fun of how I look, or something I've said, or something I've done, or especially what I believe in.
THERRY: Did you ever think of the possibility that they don't know any other way to tell you that they love you?
ZOIA: How can that be a way of telling somebody that they--that you love them?
THERRY: If an individual's communication to themselves is not very clear, how do you expect the communications to others to be clearer?