Arkashean Q&A Session -- 072

THERRY: Yea, break both arms and both collar bones and give him the message: hey, you don't know how to use your arm except for violence? The next time you'll break a lot more than just what, what has happened.

ZOA: Now this is all because, Karmically, these people initiated war, right?


ZOA: And even if they're not doing the act that day, well, wait a second. When we talked about war--

THERRY: See, you're, you're missing something here. There's more than just one thing involved.

ZOA: Okay.

THERRY: The fact that they've declared war is just part of it. But they're playing the power game; that's the second thing. And they're playing a bully game. Now all three are power struggles, but they're different facets of it, in different ways.

ZOA: So that makes it different then just a game of war.

THERRY: Yea. Now when, when you're dealing with women or children, there's an extra tinge which comes into that which is sexual maturity, which, at the moment, I'm fairly certain that nobody ever addresses.

ZOA: What about it? It's just there as an added component?


ZOA: So what's its affect?

THERRY: The ultra-violence.

ZOA: The ultra-violence?

THERRY: Yea, the uncontrolled emotions, or uncontrollable emotions, usually has its seed in their machismo, which is sexually based.

ZOA: And is it that it didn't develop properly?

THERRY: It wasn't steered properly. When they were young, while they were developing, they weren't taught how to adapt in an acceptable way.

ZOA: But that aspect is only when it's a male abuser?

THERRY: No, it's both.

ZOA: Female abuser too?


ZOA: Okay, so, when we talked about war a couple of weeks ago, you said that if someone attacks and then retreats, then if you advance on them, then it's your Karma for attacking.

THERRY: That was a different level, Mel. Different discussion.

ZOA: Okay.

THERRY: It's got nothing to do with what will work; it has to do with the karmic levels of the game.

ZOA: Right.

THERRY: That's got nothing to do with today's conversation.

ZOA: Well this aspect of people playing war, that has nothing to do with it?

THERRY: No. People don't react the same in wars as countries do.

ZOA: So the Karma for a war between two people versus two countries is also different?


ZOA: Because it's a different level of war?


ZOA: So the Karma's I guess different.


ZOA: So then, for people, when they're at war, and you're in a household, and you're married, and the guy beats you up and then retreats, and you hire--

THERRY: Your only hope to make sure that it doesn't return again is to give him a little bit of his own medicine, and to make it so that it's just a little bit worse, even though those have a tendency to try to escalate things, the problem is you give the husband or the wife the message that there's no way on this planet that you are going to accept your violence. You come to me with violence, and I'll find some way of flatten you out, and keep you flattened out. That way, the next time they play their power trip they'll remember the time they spent in the hospital, and they're going to stop. But so long as they get away with their power play, their violence, they're willing to pay the penalty of being slapped on the wrist later on. But if they have to spend their six months or nine months in a cast under pain pills, now the price is a little too high; it's a little bit more than two or three days in a comfortable jail.

ZOA: And on the karmic level that was still defense.

THERRY: Yea. Of course, the law frowns on those things, because it's still assault and battery.

ZOA: Yea, but if they assaulted you and you assaulted them who are they gonna arrest?

THERRY: It's still assault and battery. The law will look at, well he walked away, then you attacked him. The same way as women who are raped who go after the men who raped them, the woman's the one who gets thrown in jail, and he ends up walking free. It would be the same thing in this case.

ZOA: So then the person would end up in jail for assault and battery?


ZOA: But she would have broken the victim hole?

THERRY: So what? Remember, justice has got nothing to do with this.

ZOA: Well, that seems like a no-win situation.

THERRY: Of course. War is always a no-win situation.

ZOA: Well isn't there a way to achieve peace without having both people lose in that situation?


ZOA: Because one person wants to play war.

THERRY: One person wants to play war, and the only way that war will end is when the partys involved have had enough of war; they don't want no more war, and they'll do anything to stop war. But it can't be just one-sided. So long as there is a mind force there who wants war, war will continue. Now, these wives who are beaten up, man, to me, they just, all they have for brains is marbles.

ZOA: Well, how come it's okay if their husbands beat `em up, and they don't get charged with assault and battery? Even if they take `em to court?

THERRY: Because they don't fight it; they, they just let it go.

ZOA: It seems to me that if I was being beaten up, that I would beat the guy up back.

THERRY: It's the only way.

ZOA: And do it--

THERRY: I'd make sure that there's no way that he could use his hands for quite a while. And I'd make sure that that guy would know the next time I see you you're going to get the exact same thing, and until you get out of town, you may as well stay in that hospital, because every single time I see you, you're going to get exactly the same thing.

ZOA: Now, is that right to do? I mean, is that honorable to do?

THERRY: Zoa, do me a favor--stop trying to bring justice in war; there aren't any. If you're talking about war, there is no such thing as justice, there is no such thing as honor, and, above all, there is no such thing as peace. The game of war has three components, okay. Hatred, revenge, and murder. Those are the guiding forces of war, and none of those three components have anything to do about honor and justice. Honor and justice are nothing more then tools, illusions, to give you the so-called right to commit those three atrocities.

ZOA: Well, is it necessary to do it every time they--every time you see um to stop the war, or isn't it just necessary to do it the once, and if he doesn't bother you again you don't--it doesn't matter if you see him on the street or not.

THERRY: Obviously it depends on the battle skirmishes. I think that any woman who will continue to live with a man who has resulted in physical violence, has got shit for brains. I don't care how much he apologizes; I don't care how much he tries to make it up, I think she's got shit for brains.

ZOA: Well, I tend to agree with you. They are very hard for me to work with because they go back to their husbands.

THERRY: Yep. And it's the same thing for a husband who gets beat up by his wife; I think he's got shit for brains. It gives new meaning to the words scrambled brains.

ZOA: But, so what you're saying is you need to break the bully mentality for the bully and for yourself.


ZOA: And those axe... by being violent back, you'll do that.

THERRY: Well, let's put it this way. Your present patient, the one that's in the wheel chair all the time: If she had handled it correctly the very first time, she wouldn't be in a wheelchair, and he wouldn't be in a life sentence. But because the bully syndrome was never broken, he just kept being bully more and more and more; the power play became greater and greater, and it just got out of hand.

ZOA: What makes a person stay in that situation? The victim, what makes the victim stay there?

THERRY: Well--

ZOA: Pattern-wise?

THERRY: Well, there's a couple of patterns. One of the biggest: somehow, she's playing a martyr game, and another pattern would be that she's playing the guilt game.

ZOA: How so? guilt--

THERRY: Well, that has a number of facets to it. Could be that there's a mixture of martyr and a mixture of guilt together in that she feels she should be punished for some of the things that she's doing. And he's the instrument of her punishment, or whatever.

ZOA: I could see that. I guess that would be subconscious, right?

THERRY: It doesn't have to be, no. You'd be surprised at how many women believe that sex is bad, and so when she has sex with her husband she's bad, and therefore should be punished.

ZOA: Yea, I was thinking that, except it wasn't with her husband. She apparently was kinda wild, and she was also grown up in this kind of an atmosphere, and she was also daddy's little girl, and men's little girl, and her sister was mommy's little girl, the good girl. So I can see--it's very interesting watching, being able to work with the family for a longer period of time than just a few weeks.

THERRY: Yea, you can never know for sure why any woman would want to remain under those conditions. But, one thing is for sure, they like the rewards that they get.

ZOA: Well, when you say rewards, you don't mean being beaten, do you?


ZOA: You do?

THERRY: Yea. That's the reward for the game they play.

ZOA: Well, I guess I can see--I can see at least the possibility of her being guilty for something she may have done. I don't know if that's--I can only say I see the possibility. I mean who knows whether that's really what it was or not.

THERRY: Then of course there's always the possibility that they're genuinely too frightened to leave.

ZOA: She said she was too frightened to leave because he always said he'd kill her when she left. And she did leave, and he did try to kill her.

THERRY: Well, see the only reason why that occurred to begin with is because she didn't put a stop to it in the very beginning.

ZOA: But that was always what he said. You don't think they had a karmic situation where she had a premonition that it was true?

THERRY: Okay, but she still didn't handle it properly from the beginning. The very very very very minute that she beat up on him; the very first time she should have broken both of his legs and both of his arms; both of his collarbones and put him in the hospital for seven or eight months out of the year with a very severe warning that the next time he even thinks of committing violence against her, he's going to have exactly the same thing, only this time the use of his legs is not going to return. So the very very very very very first time it occurs, that will break the bully pattern, because at most it'll occur only once, once more, at most, and at that point you make the threat for real. He never walks again, and that takes care of it from that point on, he stays his distance.

ZOA: And when you do that it's unlikely that they'll come back and kill you because you have stood up to them.

THERRY: It's very unlikely, yea.

ZOA: I've got some questions you may or may not be able to answer but I haven't found them anywhere else, and that is the body, and touch. I've been working with my patient, um, doing massage with her and stuff and through working with her I've also been thinking about the response of the body because even though she can't feel, she can't interpret sensations as feelings, um, her body definitely feels, and it still has an autonomic nervous system that functions.


ZOA: And I noticed that well, my theory is that touch, that the body needs touch and that it likes it, and that you feel better emotionally and mentally as well as physically when it gets it. Is there any validity to that?


ZOA: No?

THERRY: The body does not need touch; It is the emotions and the mind that needs touch, not the body.

ZOA: Okay, well, that blew that theory. Well then, how come people seem to--how come babies have died when they didn't have it? Their emotions and mind were--well they were still there.

THERRY: Of course they were. It is the--when the, when the children were not uh, allowed to build a bonding between a parent, their emotions and their mind never developed, and hence, they would die because there was no reason to remain in their body.

ZOA: Even when they got their basic needs met which does involve some touch, it's just perfunctory.

THERRY: Exactly. But it's touch just the same. So if the body needed touch, they got the touch because they were laying on something, they got the touch when they were being fed, they got the touch when they were covered. The clothing touched their body. In the process of feeding they got touch--

ZOA: So is that enough?

THERRY: So therefore it is not the touch, it is the emotional bonding. It's not the physical touch; it's the emotional and psychological touch that they need.

ZOA: And how `bout adults?

THERRY: Same thing.

ZOA: Because I've noticed differences in her body response to me which I was surprised at.

THERRY: Because her mind allows it.

ZOA: Okay. I've never talked about--

THERRY: Remember the law about duality?

ZOA: Duality, no. Reality. Reality's dual in its nature; triune in its effects.

THERRY: Right.

ZOA: Is that the one you're talking about?

THERRY: Yea. Duality aspects.

ZOA: Okay.

THERRY: Humans are that way too. It has to do with that which is real interacting with that which is illusion.

ZOA: Does she miss touch?

THERRY: In a way, yes.

ZOA: Because it's weird, it's like; I started thinking that no one ever touched her except to change her clothes and stuff. And I started thinking--what really made me think this is one day I was missing touch and I was, I know it's PMS, but when I'm PMS at a certain point sometimes in my cycle, I'll get a real desire to be held and stuff by people, not for sex, but just the physical contact. Well then I started thinking what people--

THERRY: But understand, if you think, if you look closely, it is not physical. The touch that you need is, belongs to the world of illusion. And unfortunately the only way it can be satisfied is through the avenue of somebody else being present.

ZOA: Well, then how come just sharing time doesn't satisfy it? I had that one time--

THERRY: Because it's not touching.

ZOA: But if it's my mind, why is--

THERRY: And your emotions.

ZOA: Okay.

THERRY: It's the intertwining of one's aura.

ZOA: If I sat close to someone would it work?

THERRY: No, it's not close enough.

ZOA: Because I remember one time when I was here and I was really upset about that and it was the same time; the next day I got my period. But I was really upset. I don't think Wayne was here, and I didn't feel comfortable enough in asking any of the people who were here. Now I had just spent time with everybody. I had had a session; I had hung out and played.

THERRY: But it wasn't the proper type of time.

ZOA: Okay, I also find that I don't want sex as much as the same thing that I'm describing or trying to describe to you now. That's what I usually miss.


ZOA: And you're saying it's the intertwining of auras with somebody else?

THERRY: Yea. That can only be done through the body because it's an interchange.

ZOA: Do people who are celibate miss it?

THERRY: No they get it.

ZOA: They get it? From where?

THERRY: Every time they touch someone. They can sit down and hold others or be held. That's--

ZOA: Because when I was abstaining from sex--well, Wayne did that with me, but no one else did, I mean, if I wasn't sexual with someone, like, say, especially in the world, then no one else did it.

THERRY: Correct.

ZOA: And even here, the people most comfortable doing it were opposite sex, Dale and Ron and Wayne. You and Tim I'm not comfortable enough doing that with, and Glo, Glo's better about that now with me than she used to be, but initially you know, I felt, I felt odd because I felt like she was uncomfortable so that wasn't that great, and I find I like being with women and doing that more.


ZOA: But I like, men satisfy me pretty much too `cause Bill does, you know, and I'm not sexually attracted at all to Bill, but we take baths together and we cuddle in bed together and to me, that's the perfect part of our relationship.


ZOA: And that's all mind and emotions.


ZOA: Okay.

THERRY: It's--it's ah--we call it emotions interchange.

ZOA: Emotion's interchange.

THERRY: Possessive case, emotion's.

ZOA: Emotion's interchange. Is there a sexual aspect there, or it's totally missing?

THERRY: No. Totally missing. If there is a sexuality that creeps into it, it's not part of emotion's interchange.

ZOA: And people that are disabled, I've been trying to figure out this not only on her, because I've been trying to look for patterns, but it seems like people don't do that with them.

THERRY: No they don't, because of the way people think in today's society it's too close to a sexual behavior.

ZOA: That's too bad. And I guess they do miss it, don't they?

THERRY: Yea. But they do it with children.

THERRY: But they do it with children.

ZOA: Yea, that's true.

THERRY: But again, that's too close to sexual behavior so unfortunately to some people you end up with child abuse.

ZOA: Well, and even so, her kid, I don't think she's been hugged since she's been hurt. I mean, she's been kissed, but you know, she's usually in her chair, and unless she gets physical therapy and someone accidentally or purposely puts their arm around her waist to push her back down, I don't really think she gets any of that other energy.

THERRY: And that's not the same when it's rooted to a purpose.

ZOA: Yea, I didn't think it was. It's too bad.

THERRY: Although she would feel the lack of it, she would feel the yearning, but again, her machismo would prevent it from having any benefit from it.

ZOA: You mean from someone else that was--yea. I thought of that too. I did. Although I wondered if that would work if I was--I was thinking of trying to massage her a different way and I was wanting to see if she could sit up and sit like in front of me, and I was wondering, this went back to my theory, and I didn't know if it was accurate or not, but I wondered if her body and emotions would benefit from it at all if I held her while I massaged her, and actually massaged her--

THERRY: No, because--

ZOA: `Cause it's still attached to a purpose?


ZOA: So--

THERRY: Well, more than that--

ZOA: Well, I mean not held her, held her; just kind of gave her--

THERRY: I know but you have to bear in mind that that type of behavior is awfully close to sexual behavior and you never know where her mind is going to go.

ZOA: Well, that's true. I give her a massage, a full body massage once a week, and ah, that's not close to sexual behavior.

THERRY: No, but that is purpose orientated.

ZOA: Yea, it's really--well, yea, it is I guess. It didn't start out that way; now it's about half and half, because I massage the parts of her that can feel, that's not purpose orientated. I mean, giving her a head and face massage, I'm doing it because it feels good to her and because I started thinking about this and thought--

THERRY: Still purpose oriented.

ZOA: Still purpose oriented?

THERRY: When you think of purpose orientated, you can't look at it from your mind, you got to look at it from hers. It's part of full care.

ZOA: No one else does it.

THERRY: So what?

ZOA: Well so, if it's part of full care, and it's purpose orientated, does it do any good?

THERRY: A little. It's good to help the muscles be in tone, it's good for that, even though the muscles themselves have no basic feeling.

ZOA: Well, the thing is they respond, that's why I said that they seem to even though she can't interpret it, they seem to feel. I mean, if you put hot or cold on them, her muscles will contract or relax. When I put my hand on `em, they definitely seem to respond. When I go to cath her, her leg kind of pulls away. Whenever I touch anything that's near her loin area, her body kinda pulls away more, you know, just like someone would who would feel.

THERRY: Yea, that's her autonomic system. That indicates her levels of prejudice, how deep they are.

ZOA: How so? Oh, you mean because she pulls away when I touch her?


ZOA: Well, I would think that's a lifetime of training to keep your legs closed and keep anybody else away.


ZOA: But that's interesting that that would be put into autonomic.

THERRY: Yea, it is.

ZOA: But the other day she was sleeping and I say her hand move.

THERRY: That doesn't mean anything.

ZOA: Well.

THERRY: Hands twitching, involuntarily twitching, that's not movement.

ZOA: Okay, but how come, if she, if her spinal cord is severed the way they say it is, how come that would happen? It wasn't actually spasming, I mean, the wrist, it was moving like this.

THERRY: Yea, that's the phantom movement. Phantom movement is not movement.

ZOA: Then what is it?

THERRY: It's firing or misfiring of various nerve cells.

ZOA: So, maybe I converted here, but are you saying then, therapeutic touch is really not therapeutic if it's not done in an informal manner, and you're just doing it?

THERRY: It depends on the individual involved, and what their mental condition are, and what their mental acceptance is and what their level of prejudice is.

ZOA: So when you said her mind lets me in, does that mean--

THERRY: There's a little of trust there. But that doesn't necessarily mean that that extra touch works. `Cause levels of prejudice could block all that.

ZOA: Well, one day after I got finished working with her, my chain was vibrating inside, which was kinda interesting. Um, I didn't really know what that meant, persay, except that probably energy had been coming through. I mean that's what I assumed it was.


ZOA: But, well, that blows that theory. I hadn't really fully formed it yet, but it was something I was thinking of maybe doing for graduate school.

THERRY: The only thing that, the only thing that blows the theory is your insistence upon using a pairing between the body and needs. Because the body doesn't need.

ZOA: So it's the person's emotions that need?

THERRY: Most, yes. It's emotion's interchange. There's an interchange of belonging. It's a form of touch, but it's a magnetic touch rather than a physical touch.

ZOA: But you said when you just touch them for a purpose, it doesn't meet that, right?

THERRY: Yes, because the mind and the emotions are in a different place.

ZOA: Well, in order to meet that need for someone who's disabled, what would have to be done?

THERRY: Forget the disabled part; it's the same for everybody.

ZOA: Okay, then what would have to be done? It would have to just be done on a friendship level?

THERRY: Yes. On a mutual satisfaction of needs level where--Did you ever see best friends get together, they always hold hands or they hug one another.

ZOA: No, I've only seen that with people who are Arkashean; most people in the--well, that's not totally true lately. Hippier type people do that more too.

THERRY: Yea, but, um, think of children.

ZOA: Oh, children?


ZOA: Okay, well if you say children, I'd say yes. But in adults that stops, even amongst good friends accept--

THERRY: Yes I know, because the mind goes into a different place. The taboos come in. But in young children prejudice is not present. So when they're best friends, they'll hold hands and they'll get close. That's to satisfy the yearning for emotion's interchange. Then as they grow older, their religion or their other taboos come into it, and they redefine what people do in terms of friendship, and they set up barriers.

ZOA: Oh, seems kinda lonely to me.

THERRY: Well, it's a lonely world out there, but that is sort of changing the subject.

ZOA: Well, I generally get people to cuddle me, but I do notice that in mainstream society that's not done between friends; it's only done between lovers, and people that are disabled, that don't have lovers, I just wondered how they meet that need? Or--

THERRY: D'you ever notice that you've been into positions where you've been touched by non-lover type situations, and it doesn't fit the bill.

ZOA: Well yea, actually it does.

THERRY: Uh-uh. The only times when it fits the bill is when you're being held by non-lovers because they agree--in other words, they agree to take part in a behavior, but it forbids sex. But the emotions are there. For instance, you and Bill.

ZOA: Yea, so what kind of touch are you referring to that doesn't fit the bill? A touch on the arm or what?

THERRY: When you're being touched in a clinical type situation where it's not a mutual closeness; that doesn't satisfy what it is that you're looking for.

ZOA: When you say clinical, you mean like, for a purpose?


ZOA: Well, when you talk about like, giving me a shot or doing my blood pressure, you're right. When you're talking about--I don't think I've ever been touched in a clinical purpose, full body, or--

THERRY: Doesn't have to be full body. We're talking about touch, period.

ZOA: Okay--

THERRY: For instance, somebody's taking your pulse, well; they're touching you for a rather long period of time. Does that satisfy anything?

ZOA: No.

THERRY: Exactly, because it is not mutual. But if you guys are in a mutual situation and somebody grabs your wrist, the exact same behavior as if somebody was taking your pulse, now there's a satisfaction.

ZOA: That's true, I've seen that.

THERRY: So it's not the touching, it's the extra. It's the mutuality.

ZOA: Okay.

THERRY: It's when both parties touch their auras wantonly to share. If it's not mutual, it won't have that special touch to it.

ZOA: Okay, then, how `bout massage, then?

THERRY: Massage is a mutual thing.

ZOA: Is it a mutual thing?


ZOA: Even though it's still a function?

THERRY: Yea. Although it doesn't have to be a mutual thing.

ZOA: So when would it not be a mutual thing?

THERRY: Let's say if it were physical therapy.

ZOA: Okay, so--

THERRY: See, in order for it to be a mutual thing, there has to be a special temporary bonding between two parties, and it is that bonding that does the satisfying.

ZOA: See, I feel that happening when I massage her. It's made some complicated situations for me in my own mind.


ZOA: Which are being resolved, so I didn't worry about it; it's just the first, this is the first time that I've ever had a long-term private duty patient, and some of the patterns that you've been talking about about becoming part of the family, well those are kind of happening.

Something else is kind of happening is kind of a transference kinda thing,


ZOA: --a little bit, at least in my mind; now in her mind I don't know what's going on and I'm kind of afraid to ask her so I haven't, `cause I didn't want to seem weird or anything, I'm just trying to note dispassionately what happens in my mind. And when I first started working with her it was just kind of a job and then I got a little bit of a crush on her but it was different then with other people. It was more like I had with my therapist a long time ago, and yet it wasn't even the same quality as that, and now it's kind of fading off. You know, for a while I fantasized about her and now it's like, it's just kinda leaving still, but when I do massage her, she, the only time she's really opened up to me verbally about anything other than just your normal bullshit is usually when I massage her. Um, or sometimes when I put her to bed. But lately I've been massaging her, for the past two weeks I gave her full body massages. I only started massaging her about three weeks ago, but now I feel like every time I come there, it's kind of like sex with a bisexual woman, not the massage part. The attitude of dancing around each other in a sense; it's like I feel, or I'm sensing that she wants massage but she doesn't want to ask. And I had an affair with this woman once who had a boyfriend, and every time we were together there was this tension. It's in general why I prefer lesbian women better because with bisexuals it's like there's always this question of will we or won't we, and then there's like, no matter what you do there's this charge there, and then a lot of times you're frustrated and then sometimes you're satisfied, but it colors everything else, whereas with a lesbian woman even if you're compatible friend, they're usually more direct about it, so if you go play tennis, you're playing tennis, and then whatever happens happens, but the other thing doesn't really color it as much, you know, and, so now I go to work and it's like I can feel like she wants to ask me this and she doesn't, so I offer it to her, so I was thinking of going to her this weekend and just saying look I'll be glad to do this for you every week. No, I shouldn't do that? Why?

THERRY: Leave it the way it is; it's a whole lot better.

ZOA: With the tension there?

THERRY: Um-hum.

ZOA: Why is that better?

THERRY: In the long run it's a whole lot better.

ZOA: Why?

THERRY: It's better for her; gives her something to look forward to. May give her meaning to life.

ZOA: You don't think it would give her meaning to life to say yea, I'll do it and you don't have to ask, and you don't have to wonder about it for--

THERRY: No. I think that lets the steam out of things, because it sounds like, okay, I'm a nurse; you're a patient, I'll rub your back, that's the going rate.

ZOA: Yea, well see that's not what it is between us, and I don't want it to be that.

THERRY: So your best, you're better off allowing that little tension there. It'll give her something to fantasize about.

ZOA: Hum, yea.

THERRY: Don't rob her dreams.

ZOA: It almost seems like a bummer to fight that hard to live, and then come back to the world and be like it is to be disabled.

THERRY: I saw a couple of bumper stickers that I thought were very amusing.

ZOA: What did they say?

THERRY: One of them is derogatory towards women, and the other one is derogatory towards life

ZOA: What do they say?

THERRY: Oh, see, one of them says life's a bitch. You're born, then you die. The other one that was derogatory towards women says life's a bitch, then you marry one.

ZOA: I've seen those. But the thing is it doesn't have to be that way for--I mean I'm not talking about quality of life. See when I first worked with her I wondered what anyone would want to live in that condition for; why they wouldn't just want to die and go on to their next incarnation because she really had to fight to stay here, I mean--

THERRY: Seems to me that makes an awfully large assumption.

ZOA: That people aren't afraid to die.

THERRY: No, the only reason why you are capable of having that thought is because you know there is another life. What about those who were brought up Christian where to them their other life is nothing more than the result of condemnation.

ZOA: Well, that's true.

THERRY: For them death is a horrible, horribly scary thing.

ZOA: But a lot of people that have traumatic things have a near-death experience and realize then that there is none, and still some of them fight to come back. `Course a lot of them say that they're told to come back. See she's never talked about any of that and I've never asked, and I don't want to pry into it, it's just that I feel, when you told me she was really near death because she was very dependent on other people for her survival, and also you know, what she had been through, even if she had not been through any conscious experience that she remembers, I sense a part of her has, somewhere. I sense a part of her sitting back, kinda watching the whole thing, and that knows.

Now maybe this is all my imagination, but I don't think so. Um, I've only really glimpsed that being person, whatever, once, higher mind, I really don't know what to call it. Other part of herself maybe, really where I really recognized its existence. The rest of the time I usually don't see it. But there was one time, I'm trying to remember back but I really can't, I just remember mentioning it to somebody else, I think it was Wayne or Bill, that uh, that there was like this place in me and this place in her and we kinda had seen similar things, and we acknowledged each other in some way. Does this sound ridiculous?


ZOA: Okay. Um, I don't know, I guess this is hard to verbalize.